Wow! Membership Renewal Fee!

[Willowpondgj]

Kathleen,
No, we do not offer the rebate credit on annual payment plans, only monthly. Sorry to see you turn a creit porgram for somethign that helps innkeepers sell more rooms, into a negative...
Why do you feel our pricing is not fair? I understand we are the most expensive, but when we look at basically every metric that is available to us such as: innkeeper's Extremne Tracker pages, the Google analytics for the sites we host for innkeepers stats from companies like Moriah and INsideOut, or even to simply comparing us to other directories on independent third-party sites like Quantcast - they seem to unanimously support our pricing as fair. If you do the math on traffic, conversions, reservations or dollars - we deliver an order of magnitude more business to our member inns than other directories, and we do not charge an "order of magnitude higher price". So we are actually a better deal than most if not all other directories when you look at ROI. You seem to be solely looking at the cost. Why do you not look at the return? I do not understand, but would like to understand the logic behind this reasoning
You also make it sound like it is bad that we have acquired other companies in this industry that we are going ot force innkeepers to "Pay up or go out of business". What the heck are you talking about??
If we wouldn't have bought BBCOM back from WorldRes, who knows what would have happened to it since WorldRes basically went out of business. WorldRes also owned Guest Tracker and made us take them with our purchase of BBCOM back from WorldRes. Had we not done that, Guest Tracker would probably also be out of business. We just acquired Webervations and while it is a greta product that many innkeepers love, it had one programmer that basically worked his entire live on maintaining this product to keep it from crashing, add functionality, etc. (David Swain). The man had not had a vacation in 10 years and had a cot in his office... You think that is a good way to run a company? It certainly is not fair for you to expect David Swain to not have a life so you can save a few bucks. His business was not sustainable. You cannot run a business long-term without a family or personal life. THAT IS WHAT IS NOT FAIR. Now that we have acquired it, aside from a few short0lived issues with transitioning an entire website and database - which should be expected), we have made a lot of improvements to the back-end that will protect innkeepers using the product with things a core piece of any innkeeper's website should have that were lacking. Things like security, redundancy, back-ups, exception reporting, etc.). Had we not acquired it, at some point David would have thrown in the towel - and he was close. Then if you look at the actual facts around Property Management Software - since acquiring Guest Tracker, we have brought the price down from $599 to $199 (and many times it is completely FREE) while becoming Microsoft Gold certified, spending 6 months and lots of money to become security certified (soon), created an agreement with Intuit (industry first) to integrate with Quickbooks, moved to a much more robust SQL database, added much morte online support (videos, FAQ, Wiki's, etc.). We have also led th eindustry in dropping the price of our real-time online booking engine product from 5% er reservation to a flat monthyl fee that saves innkeepers 80% over what they use to pay for this product. And you say we are forcing innkeepers to "pay up or go out of business"..??? The ONLY thing we have increased pricing on is for listings on BedandBreakfast.com and we have already clearly explained by how much per average per year, and why we did. So how on earth are you saying it is bad that we kept these comapnies alive and continued ot invest in and improve them and dropped prices for many things.???
To answer your question about the Bronze level, it is for folks to get a listing on our wesbite. Not everyone wants a link. So we offer those that don't a level without a link. Again, I don't see where that is bad...??? It is our lowest number of members by category, but these folks get business or we would not see the renewal rate as high as the other levels and these folks would drop off.
If you really wan tto be helpful to aspirings, tell them all of the directories, their cost, the amount of traffic they get (check Quantcast or something), their page rank on Google, and an estimated ROI. Otherwise that is like saying that newspaper A cost X, newspaper B cost Y, and newspaper C cost Z. Without knowing their circulation, the information is not that useful/meaningful. The prices are based on their reach (number of eyeballs).
Man, I really thinnk this group is full of a bunch of "glass half empty" folks. HappyJacks - Our new offer for international members is less for international members because we drive less traffic to them - and therefore provide less value - and therefore charge less. It really is pretty simple and straightforward. It is not because we are trying to screw anyone...?
The free 3 month membership is for ANY new member, not just international. So now we are bad guys for offering innkeepers 3 months up-front with absolutely no risk?????????????????
There is never a "devil-may-care" attitude here about our rates for ANY product. We spend lots of time making sure we price our products and services fairly.
How is it HappyJacks, that we have over 7,000 members with a 90+% renewal rate if we have "poor customer relations"?? I seriously cannot figure out where you are coming from unless since this board allows people to post without identifying their true indentity, you are from a competiting directory.
So we realize we do not have a smuch traffic in Europe as we do in the US, so we offer discounted rates, free trial, invest in SEO and SEM, and you feel we are bad for doing it. Hmmm... Sorry, you lost me...
We launched a program to offer innkeepers an opportunity to earn a $60 credit per year and you say it is "slimy"...? We raise our rates every year. We were not hiding anything. The "credits" starting applying immediately to all monthly paying members regardless of if they are on the new pricing or not. It is not only working for folks on the new pricing. So how exactly is it slimy?
Kathleen - If you can put your money to work somewhere else and get a better return, we have advocated that ALL ALONG (even on this board). But what is up with such negativeness? I am sorry if our ROI is not enough for you. But just as innkeepers have to price their room and cannot price so every single perosn that wants to stay there can stay there, we also have to price our business at the level that gives US a fair ROI on OUR investment. I promise you though that if I come across a B&B/Inn?Hotel that is charging more than I am willing to py, I won't begrudge them. This is capitalism. They should charge a fair price for the value they provide. I am not going to throw them under the bus for it...
Have a nice weekend folks.
Eric
PS. Here is a comment I JUST got from an innkeeper. a BRONZE innkeeper. Maybe this will help you understand that we have to meet the needs of many differnt types of innkeepers and as I stated above, some of them only want a Bronze membership with no link - so we offer it. You don't need to beat us up for it because you don't need it or you think it is a rip-off. It works or innkeepers would not buy it and we would not offer it.
"Thank bedandbreakfast.com for all of your help and quick responses to my questions. A huge percentage of my guests the first year of membership have been from bedandbreakfast.com and I'm thrilled! I love this site.
Carolsue McCue
THE HERB COTTAGE".

I use the word 'slimy' as it pertains to deceptive sales tactics. When John posted two weeks ago about the new credit review program, it was in the guise of sharing info with the innkeepers here. It seems to me that it was about self-promotion and not informational sharing, otherwise he would have shared the whole story on the changes to the pricing structure--namely the rate increase which essentially negates the credit.
Eric, if you think customer relations is only about keeping your happy customers happy, you are doing a disservice to your company. It's also about how you service your unhappy customers, and how you relate to the portion of the market who are not your current customers but have the potential to be.
Take this credit review program and rate hike for example. John could have posted that there were some changes coming to the price structure, explaining the rate increase up front and then giving the good news that members could reduce their fees by earning review credits. This would have gone over better than the one-sided back-patting story and possibly mitigated some of the backlash here that has you reacting defensively. Effective customer relations policies are proactive, not reactive.
A company cannot control it's reputation. It can only control the interaction and communication it has with its customers. The customers decide the reputation. A company that ignores even a small portion of its unhappy customers takes a big chance, especially in these times where the internet makes it so easy for customers far and wide to share their grievances with a larger audience.
You have a unique opportunity here with this forum (and its predecessor) that many companies spend big bucks to replicate: focus group feedback. One way to use it to your benefit (and your customers') would be to compile the feedback you get, spend a round-table meeting with your staff/partners actually considering how any of it may fit the company, and then here's the key: come back and tell your feedback group customers what the results of that meeting are. People want to be communicated with, not talked at and marketed to.
I've seen more than a few examples over the past four years of what I consider missed opportunities and missteps in customer relations and business strategies. The good news is I've managed to use them to help others with their own businesses.
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Happyjacks,
The review credit applies to anyone - regardless of when their rate hike goes in place. If you paid the old rate in November, or December, you still get the review credit. So it is completely independent of the rate hike. If I hadn't posted in this forum, and the innkeepers here didn't hear about this program - then they would be mad they lost their chance to earn their rebate.
The opportunity in this forum is great, there is fantastic feedback and we take a lot of it. But there are so many posts where the point is "just give me something cheaper..." I get it - cheaper is better - but ultimately we just don't agree on the "value" of our website. Sometimes I feel like this is like the age-old issue of B&B's being more expensive than cheap hotels. A Motel 6 customer stays there for a reason - it is a room, a bed, a TV, and it is cheaper. But B&B's deliver more service, amenities, and a better experience than a Motel 6 - and they are more expensive. B&B owners think they are worth the higher price. Motel 6 customers probably don't think it is worth the price - and I don't agree with them or I wouldn't be here.
But asking you, as B&B owners, to justify your higher price compared to a Motel 6 is like asking us why we are not as cheap as some other websites. Afterall - you have a room, a bed, and a lot of times there isn't a TV in the room... Yet B&B's are generally far more expensive? How do you justify it?
So why are we more expensive than our competitors? We spend far more money on our website, our advertising, our services, our staff and try to achieve far more than our competitors. That may not make any difference to you - you may just want "a bed and a TV at a cheap price," but we also usually back it up by sending you far more reservations. If we don't, then I'm the first to say you should spend your dollars elsewhere. Doing this costs more money, and we charge more. We feel we are worth it, just like most B&B's feel they are worth more than a Motel 6.
Now clearly some of you don't think we are, and we understand that. If you are looking for a site where you can just save money on your fees, and you think any listing is as good as the next on the internet, then I can understand where you would want to send your business elsewhere. But you are likely going to wind up with one that has less traffic, less ad spend, less features, less staff, and that is going to send you far less revenue as well.
At one point I read in another post someone saying they were going go join two other sites for the price of our one silver listing and drop us. I found it it ironic since the two sites combined put together about 1/3rd of our monthly traffic... so this property now is paying the same for 1/3 of the traffic... and somehow that is supposed to be a good idea? What are we to learn from that - that we should fire our staff, cut all advertising, quit releasing new products, stop attending tradeshows, lose a lot of site traffic - so we can afford to lower our price?
We've had properties post that on a per visitor and per reservation we have been significantly cheaper than our competitors... it always makes me wonder why there aren't more complaints about other sites being too expensive. In fact - I have a proposal to make...
Lets get all of the B&B sites together (or at least the five that everyone mentions). Lets find out what the lowest cost per user or reservation site is (and lets not include BedandBreakfast.com in that mix). Then lets have all the sites agree that we will all switch to a pay-per-click model and price exactly the same - we all price at the same level as the current lowest cost-per-click or cost-per-reservation site, and go from there.
That way if a site sends you more business, they make more money, and if they send you less business, they make less money. I can tell you right now that BedandBreakfast.com would be ecstatic to switch to that kind of business model since our average cost per click to a property, and cost per reservation is generally far lower than anyone else - it would be nothing but upside. It would be completely fair - we'd all be charging the same - and the sites that generate the most users would make the most money - but no one would ever pay any site more per each user they are getting, and no one could complain they were getting charged more. If we busted our butts to find more business for the industry, we'd get rewarded, and if we sat on our duffs doing nothing, then we wouldn't make money...
Anyway, that is my rant for the night!
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Happyjacks,
The review credit applies to anyone - regardless of when their rate hike goes in place. If you paid the old rate in November, or December, you still get the review credit. So it is completely independent of the rate hike. If I hadn't posted in this forum, and the innkeepers here didn't hear about this program - then they would be mad they lost their chance to earn their rebate.
The opportunity in this forum is great, there is fantastic feedback and we take a lot of it. But there are so many posts where the point is "just give me something cheaper..." I get it - cheaper is better - but ultimately we just don't agree on the "value" of our website. Sometimes I feel like this is like the age-old issue of B&B's being more expensive than cheap hotels. A Motel 6 customer stays there for a reason - it is a room, a bed, a TV, and it is cheaper. But B&B's deliver more service, amenities, and a better experience than a Motel 6 - and they are more expensive. B&B owners think they are worth the higher price. Motel 6 customers probably don't think it is worth the price - and I don't agree with them or I wouldn't be here.
But asking you, as B&B owners, to justify your higher price compared to a Motel 6 is like asking us why we are not as cheap as some other websites. Afterall - you have a room, a bed, and a lot of times there isn't a TV in the room... Yet B&B's are generally far more expensive? How do you justify it?
So why are we more expensive than our competitors? We spend far more money on our website, our advertising, our services, our staff and try to achieve far more than our competitors. That may not make any difference to you - you may just want "a bed and a TV at a cheap price," but we also usually back it up by sending you far more reservations. If we don't, then I'm the first to say you should spend your dollars elsewhere. Doing this costs more money, and we charge more. We feel we are worth it, just like most B&B's feel they are worth more than a Motel 6.
Now clearly some of you don't think we are, and we understand that. If you are looking for a site where you can just save money on your fees, and you think any listing is as good as the next on the internet, then I can understand where you would want to send your business elsewhere. But you are likely going to wind up with one that has less traffic, less ad spend, less features, less staff, and that is going to send you far less revenue as well.
At one point I read in another post someone saying they were going go join two other sites for the price of our one silver listing and drop us. I found it it ironic since the two sites combined put together about 1/3rd of our monthly traffic... so this property now is paying the same for 1/3 of the traffic... and somehow that is supposed to be a good idea? What are we to learn from that - that we should fire our staff, cut all advertising, quit releasing new products, stop attending tradeshows, lose a lot of site traffic - so we can afford to lower our price?
We've had properties post that on a per visitor and per reservation we have been significantly cheaper than our competitors... it always makes me wonder why there aren't more complaints about other sites being too expensive. In fact - I have a proposal to make...
Lets get all of the B&B sites together (or at least the five that everyone mentions). Lets find out what the lowest cost per user or reservation site is (and lets not include BedandBreakfast.com in that mix). Then lets have all the sites agree that we will all switch to a pay-per-click model and price exactly the same - we all price at the same level as the current lowest cost-per-click or cost-per-reservation site, and go from there.
That way if a site sends you more business, they make more money, and if they send you less business, they make less money. I can tell you right now that BedandBreakfast.com would be ecstatic to switch to that kind of business model since our average cost per click to a property, and cost per reservation is generally far lower than anyone else - it would be nothing but upside. It would be completely fair - we'd all be charging the same - and the sites that generate the most users would make the most money - but no one would ever pay any site more per each user they are getting, and no one could complain they were getting charged more. If we busted our butts to find more business for the industry, we'd get rewarded, and if we sat on our duffs doing nothing, then we wouldn't make money...
Anyway, that is my rant for the night!

BandB.com is still #11-#15 on my referrer list for the month of January. You are not sending everyone an overabundance of business. "if you don't like it don't renew" okay. Sounds about right after being with BandB.com since 2003.
btw no innkeeper here is wanting CHEAP they want the best bang for their limited buck. To remind you all once again - these are family owned and operated small businesses, we are not big corporations, to pay a HIGH fee to be listed on BandB.com takes MONEY away elsewhere. Most of those in this business STRUGGLE to make ends meet.
In fact I would PREFER to pay a fee PER BOOKING! Per click. Go ahead make my day. I would agree to that.
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They are only #13 on our hits.
Oh, and, YOU GO GIRL!

 

[JBanczak]

John stated:
At one point I read in another post someone saying they were going go join two other sites for the price of our one silver listing and drop us. I found it it ironic since the two sites combined put together about 1/3rd of our monthly traffic... so this property now is paying the same for 1/3 of the traffic... and somehow that is supposed to be a good idea? What are we to learn from that - that we should fire our staff, cut all advertising, quit releasing new products, stop attending tradeshows, lose a lot of site traffic - so we can afford to lower our price?
John, I was not the poster your are referencing here but I can understand where they are coming from...and I am sure you do as well. It is not the quantity of traffic that matters, it is the quality. It does not matter how many visits there are to a listing if they do not book. If a site clearly focuses on a certain target audience - whether it be snow skiing, biking, etc., and that is the B&B's target guest, they will produce more reservations from a smaller number of views. But I am not telling you anything you didn't know...you are a smart man.
I can see the day when needing to be on a directory will be obsolete. As more and more b&b's develop websites of their own and maintain them, the need of the directories will fade into the sunset. As it is, our site comes up in first position for most of our keywords. I joined bedandbreakfast.com because I felt that I was possibly missing some B&B.com's dedicated users. Users that have been faithful to the directory, just as there are those faithful to bbonline. As of now, my click throughs from each are running neck to neck but bbonline has brought me more bookings - same time frame. I have recently thrown in the towel with Lanier due to lack of preformance and will do the same to any I find not bringing in guests. Coming out even is not preforming...I expect at least to make at least 10 times the membership cost to consider it profitable.
And as for your idea about 'pay per reservation', or more like a commissioned based site...I think it would be truly an eye opener and ego deflating experiment for bandb.com -----for me, I am game!.

"John, I was not the poster your are referencing here but I can understand where they are coming from...and I am sure you do as well. It is not the quantity of traffic that matters, it is the quality. "
We realize this as well, but I've rarely seen anyone's traffic reports that show our traffic is of anything but better quality, although we freely admit there are specific areas where other sites may deliver more traffic. We monitor our search engine positioning all the time. On average, we do better, but not everywhere. We try to make it up through other advertising spend, but sometimes you are going to see different results. Whether you measure our traffic on on reservation conversion, time on your site, bounce rate, etc. on average we think we do better. We measure this for almost 50 sites we host and beyond a shadow of a doubt it is better - in some cases WAY better, and we've had companies like Whitestone Marketing and Savvy Innkeeper publicly report the same results.
But I'm all for open information - I'd love to see actual data from inns on this. We've posted the aggregate for the inns we host - I'd love to see other sites do this as well.

 

[gillumhouse]

Lest anyone think I do not know that marketing is important, this 3 guestroom in Podunk did not become "known" by following any "industry standards" of marketing budget. I wanted to "play with the big boys" and I did. I signed up for directories I could not afford on the premise that I could not afford not to. I placed ad, got on directories, and made myself visible, leveraging my time and effort where I did not have the money. I watched, read, and lkearned, submitted articles that got printed, and was approached for things I never imagined - good things that promoted me more.
I am well aware that if you want to "run with the big dogs" there is a price. I have reached the limit of the price. I actually built my business more with the targeted approach than the scatter gun - and bandb is scatter gun - -put it up there and see who comes (as in bagged game, will it be geese, ducks, or oops, turkeys). By targeting my marketing to a different segment that would be interested in my assets each year, I was able to see what worked - and it took me a while to realize this.
So I am going to continue loading less expensive brands of shotgun shells in my scatter gun and follow what works - targeting.

 

[gillumhouse]

I just reread this. Didn't we all have a heart attack a couple of months ago when the new rates were posted here? Now you're telling me the rates went up AGAIN? In less than 3 months? According to my calculations another 15%. On top of the 30% increase? Sorry if this has already been brought up. I'm paying monthly and it's $29.95. I renewed in November..

The Silver is now $34.99 per month. Beings how you are in November, you will probalby beat the 2010 increase. If I remember correctly the increase we bumped our heads on last Fall was to $349 and my total AFTER the 5% discount for paying for the year in one lump was $398.89.

 

[Morticia]

I just reread this. Didn't we all have a heart attack a couple of months ago when the new rates were posted here? Now you're telling me the rates went up AGAIN? In less than 3 months? According to my calculations another 15%. On top of the 30% increase? Sorry if this has already been brought up. I'm paying monthly and it's $29.95. I renewed in November..

The Silver is now $34.99 per month. Beings how you are in November, you will probalby beat the 2010 increase. If I remember correctly the increase we bumped our heads on last Fall was to $349 and my total AFTER the 5% discount for paying for the year in one lump was $398.89.
.

The Silver is now $34.99 per month. Beings how you are in November, you will probalby beat the 2010 increase. If I remember correctly the increase we bumped our heads on last Fall was to $349 and my total AFTER the 5% discount for paying for the year in one lump was $398.89.

But I will still be paying the $34.99/month (if I rejoin) because that is, so far, this year's rate. My rates are, right now, LOWER than last year at this time. This summer they are going up $5, which is a 3% increase. Fuel oil is 100% more right now than last year. My taxes are 10% more than last year. My marketing outlay is 50% more than last year. Can you say 'ramen noodles?' And before anyone thinks I'm joking, that's what it is coming down to in order to keep the BUSINESS side of my home looking fresh and clean and inviting. Me? I'm going straight to hell. Heck, at least I'll lose weight.
I think I said I was done beating this dead horse last time around, so I'd better stop now.

 

[JBanczak]

"It remains to be seen if bandb will bring in the 10-fold dollars that a good marketing campaign should. But that's a decision for next November. "
I've been working in marketing for almost twenty years... heck I even got my masters in marketing. On average we deliver even more than that. Maybe we've spoiled people, but a 10-fold return is an unbelievable, record-breaking, career-making, too-good-to-be true return on investment. I'd be thrilled to death with a 3X return, and happy as the day is long with a 2X return. I'd happy just to see a break-even campaign in a lot of instances. 10X may be what you feel is appropriate, but in marketing worlds, that is not a threshold very often even considered.
If you look at marketing as a financial investment - good financial investments over a long period of time often return 10-15% (obviously huge generalization), and secure investments more like 4%. So if you are deciding to take your money out of the bank and spend on marketing, or leave it in there - and you can make 10X on your money through marketing - you have found the Holy Grail of what to do with your resources.

 

[JBanczak]

Hi everyone,
Long time lurker and aspiring innkeeper here
I just wanted to add my 2 cents in here about bedandbreakfast.com.
I recently planned a trip down to Key West and in my opinion, Trip Advisor is much more helpful than B&B.com. As a consumer I found B&B's site too commercialized and cheesy.
I would focus on improving my Trip Advisor ranking as opposed to paying such a large membership fee with B&B. When I looked for a place to stay I look for those with the most guest reviews and traveler photos. B&B just doesn't have the number of reviews that TA does and thus wasn't as useful. Besides that, obviously since not all inns are members at B&B.com, B&B doesn't list them all. As a consumer I don't like that. I like to have all the possible places in front of me, ranked by what other travelers think, not who pays the most for a top spot.
Maybe I'm weird but those are my thoughts! .

Is there anything about TripAdvisor besides the reviews that you like better?
We usually hear that innkeepers are frustrated - no link to their B&B's, no map (unless you are on Expedia through BB.com - and if you are not - your map link goes to a map of all properties around your inn except you), no amenities link, limited photos if any, the pages are literally covered with hotel advertising, and the reviews are often done by folks who have never stayed at a B&B before.
We understand we need more reviews to make consumers happy - that is for certain. We are over 50,000 reviews now and growing steadily - definitely an area of focus.

 

[happyjacks]

I just reread this. Didn't we all have a heart attack a couple of months ago when the new rates were posted here? Now you're telling me the rates went up AGAIN? In less than 3 months? According to my calculations another 15%. On top of the 30% increase? Sorry if this has already been brought up. I'm paying monthly and it's $29.95. I renewed in November..

The Silver is now $34.99 per month. Beings how you are in November, you will probalby beat the 2010 increase. If I remember correctly the increase we bumped our heads on last Fall was to $349 and my total AFTER the 5% discount for paying for the year in one lump was $398.89.
.

The Silver is now $34.99 per month. Beings how you are in November, you will probalby beat the 2010 increase. If I remember correctly the increase we bumped our heads on last Fall was to $349 and my total AFTER the 5% discount for paying for the year in one lump was $398.89.

But I will still be paying the $34.99/month (if I rejoin) because that is, so far, this year's rate. My rates are, right now, LOWER than last year at this time. This summer they are going up $5, which is a 3% increase. Fuel oil is 100% more right now than last year. My taxes are 10% more than last year. My marketing outlay is 50% more than last year. Can you say 'ramen noodles?' And before anyone thinks I'm joking, that's what it is coming down to in order to keep the BUSINESS side of my home looking fresh and clean and inviting. Me? I'm going straight to hell. Heck, at least I'll lose weight.
I think I said I was done beating this dead horse last time around, so I'd better stop now.
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Can you say 'ramen noodles?' And before anyone thinks I'm joking, that's what it is coming down to in order to keep the BUSINESS side of my home looking fresh and clean and inviting.

Oh no, I can soooo relate. Two years ago we had a non-B&B disaster/expense which blew a massive hole in our savings and ate up any cashflow. Hubby & I still refer to the time as 'the winter of Kraft Dinner'.

 

[Copperhead]

As I stated earlier in this thread, I just joined B&B.com in the last quarter of 2008 after dropping them over 3-4 years ago. Eric and John, you may be suprised by this but I renewed because of what I read on this forum. I was trying to justify scraping up the $349 dollars to join when it was announced that I could pay monthly and I signed up! Why? Because for the most part, even with the usual negative statements, there have been some very positive statements here about B&B.com. That and the fact that I am not blind, B&B.com does a great job in promoting their site, not only to innkeepers but to the general public.
Many of my colleagues have for years boosted their traffic from bbonline, so after looking at the price, I left B&B.com and went to them. Now I am on both and comparing them for the same time frame, so far I find them neck to neck in traffic to my site, yet bbonline has delivered 5 times the reservations. We all know that bbonline is less expensive, now almost 60% less when comparing the lowest linking packages, and they do not have all the additional bells and whistles that b&b.com has (most of it at extra expense). I will also tell you that my B&B.com listing is much more complete than my bbonline listing and more pleasent to the eye. So with everything that b&b.com does more of, why are't I experienceing more traffic to my site from them?
Maybe it is as Swirt says "In my estimation based on what I see while searching bandb.com based on their advertising, organic poisitioning and other programs like gift cards etc has gotten very close to the upper limit on potential inn guests."
Maybe they have reached the saturation point...and if that is so, then why would anyone continue to pay more and more each year for the same about of traffic? Yes we can pay even more by signing up for this program or that program in hopes to attract a few more ticks on the traffic stats and maybe another reservation or two. But for the most part, as Swirt puts it, everything is by the most part pulling from the same pool of potential guests.
And if Swirt is right, then maybe the response to John's statement "...that we should fire our staft, cut all advertising , quit releasing new products, stop attending tradeshows,..." would be yes, at least in part. Thus cutting some of the ever rising expense that is passed on to its members with membership increases.
Eric wrote: "... Our new offer for international members is less for international members because we drive less traffic to them - and therefore provide less value - and therefore charge less. It really is pretty simple and straightforward. ..." (50% less according to the post)
Instead of you get what you pay for, in this regard you pay for what you get. Simular to what John was bringing up - pay for click or pay per reservation. I do feel that some areas draw more traffic than others and with the theory previously stated, that traffic is at a saturation point. Thus the value is less. I want to further evaluate this theory and Eric's statements about less traffic, less value, less charge....
I do not have stats for B&B's through out different regions of the US, nor do I have access to this type of stats from bandb.com. I do however have the following which seems to shed a little light on the topic. BandB.com issues a Hot Deals reminder each week. The email states that they send out the Hot Deals email over 83,000 registered potential guests weekly. Now once a member goes to post their hot deal, down at the bottom of the page bandb.com lists the number of registered potential guests for YOUR region, which your hot deal will be sent. In my case that is 2400 of 83,000+ about 3% of the total registered to receive this email. This makes me wonder about what % of the traffic BandB.com receives actually is for my region. Using this theory, maybe my region should be considered for a less costly rate...

 

[gillumhouse]

I just reread this. Didn't we all have a heart attack a couple of months ago when the new rates were posted here? Now you're telling me the rates went up AGAIN? In less than 3 months? According to my calculations another 15%. On top of the 30% increase? Sorry if this has already been brought up. I'm paying monthly and it's $29.95. I renewed in November..

The Silver is now $34.99 per month. Beings how you are in November, you will probalby beat the 2010 increase. If I remember correctly the increase we bumped our heads on last Fall was to $349 and my total AFTER the 5% discount for paying for the year in one lump was $398.89.
.

The Silver is now $34.99 per month. Beings how you are in November, you will probalby beat the 2010 increase. If I remember correctly the increase we bumped our heads on last Fall was to $349 and my total AFTER the 5% discount for paying for the year in one lump was $398.89.

But I will still be paying the $34.99/month (if I rejoin) because that is, so far, this year's rate. My rates are, right now, LOWER than last year at this time. This summer they are going up $5, which is a 3% increase. Fuel oil is 100% more right now than last year. My taxes are 10% more than last year. My marketing outlay is 50% more than last year. Can you say 'ramen noodles?' And before anyone thinks I'm joking, that's what it is coming down to in order to keep the BUSINESS side of my home looking fresh and clean and inviting. Me? I'm going straight to hell. Heck, at least I'll lose weight.
I think I said I was done beating this dead horse last time around, so I'd better stop now.
.

January 2006 when the deconstructors were here I had $5 cash at the beginning of the month (no idea what DH had he did not say) and a month to get through with no hope of guests because of the deconstruction. (We sere shut down for 11 weeks with that bathrooms project!) DH cannot eat Ramen noodles because of the sodium - the produce store ran a tab for me until we had guests again and we made extensive use of the "lets get rid of" section, the only way we could have made it through. It was the first time in my life I lived on credit cards - and I hope the last. I got to "stay" at the Gillum House (that way it was NOT a cash advance but I did get to pay cc fees on it).
Living beyond 62 has made the difference for me.

 

[NW BB]

John,
Has bandb.com ever considered a "sliding scale" for membership? Something like what PAII or our state association does? 1-4 rooms pay $x for Silver Level, 5-10 rooms pay $x for the same level?
It seems to me to level the playing field a bit more. Those inns with more rooms have the potential to make more from their bandb.com listing.

 

[Morticia]

I think there are some really interesting things being brought up here. Many we've hashed around before here and on the old forum. As I have always said, a company can decide what they want to charge for their products and consumers can always decide whether they want to pay it or not. Sounds like there are several here who are willing to vote with their feet and go.
John brought up the comparison of joining two or three directories for the price of one. I've got some numbers on these that I'll post here shortly, but I have to make some pretty charts so I can't post them yet.
But there are a few other things that have come up that I can address now.

I can see the day when needing to be on a directory will be obsolete. As more and more b&b's develop websites of their own and maintain them, the need of the directories will fade into the sunset.

It would be nice if this were true, but I don't see it happening as there are only 10 slots on each search engine result page and searchers only dig so far. The difference in traffic between number 2 and number 8 is huge. Directories, by current search engine ranking methods, typically have more power for the big terms.

Why not find a way to do your pricing to increase your listings from 7,000 to 28,000? If you charge half as much and make twice as much, that's good economics as well as good for the industry.

This is a real interesting question and one that I think gets overlooked. In any directory, there are two sides that have to balance. There has to be a balance between the amount of properties and the amount of prospective guest traffic.
Examples:

• A directory with 28,000 inns and 7 prospective guests clicking around would be bad for innkeepers.
• A directory with 6 inns and 5000 prospective guests would be great for those 6 inns, but bad for the potential guests (not enough choice).

In my estimation based on what I see while searching bandb.com based on their advertising, organic poisitioning and other programs like gift cards etc has gotten very close to the upper limit on potential inn guests. Keep in mind that for every new inn they bring into the directory, they have to bring in ~100 new potential guests per year. So rapid growth of the directory would cause a dramatic drop in the number of referrals each inn gets. It is possible, since some are saying that their referral numbers are dropping, that this large price increase is really a method of thinning the herd (collection of inns in the directory) to make it better for the inns that stick around.
And of course we do similar things... when we hear someone saying they have an 80% occupancy rate and are getting burned out, we tell them to raise their rates. .

In my estimation based on what I see while searching bandb.com based on their advertising, organic poisitioning and other programs like gift cards etc has gotten very close to the upper limit on potential inn guests. Keep in mind that for every new inn they bring into the directory, they have to bring in ~100 new potential guests per year. So rapid growth of the directory would cause a dramatic drop in the number of referrals each inn gets. It is possible, since some are saying that their referral numbers are dropping, that this large price increase is really a method of thinning the herd (collection of inns in the directory) to make it better for the inns that stick around.

This is exactly what I think our local marketing agency is doing...thinning the herd. It is much easier for them to deal with big corporations that don't have time to call them on the phone and say, 'Hey, how come referrals to my site from yours have dropped 50% over the past year?' The big guys just pay. We little guys are more in touch with our stats and the phone. It takes 3-4 of us to add up to what the Hilton/Hampton/Holiday Inn pay and then they only have to deal with one person who has to be somewhat PC in that that person represents a huge corporation whereas I only represent myself and can be as obnoxious as I want.
So, if they can dump 9-12 'whiners' and take on 3-4 major corporations and earn the same money, they save themselves aggro, server space, marketing dollars. Plus, the big corps will comp lots of rooms for trade shows, gift bags, prizes, etc.
They also get a kick in the SEO pants by listing those brand names on the town website. Much more kick than adding MY site would give them.
So, as with anything, it comes down to 'pay to play'. It's easier to deal with a 20 room Inn than a smaller place that may expect much more for their marketing dollars, the larger place being more diverse in their marketing plans. (This is also the reason to charge $25 per help phone call. Cut down on the number of small timers needing help, or make them pay for the privilege. Most big places have in house IT help.)
There are a couple of places in town that pay the top dollar to be on the bandb site. Does it really bring in that much more biz? I don't know. And I'm not willing to pay to find out. Because much of last year's biz from bandb was in gift cards in small amounts that were given out as 'awards' to folks who really didn't WANT to be at a B&B, but felt they HAD to use those award dollars. I see no reason to pay the extra money to attract more of that crowd.
It remains to be seen if bandb will bring in the 10-fold dollars that a good marketing campaign should. But that's a decision for next November.

 

[briarrosebb]

"It remains to be seen if bandb will bring in the 10-fold dollars that a good marketing campaign should. But that's a decision for next November. "
I've been working in marketing for almost twenty years... heck I even got my masters in marketing. On average we deliver even more than that. Maybe we've spoiled people, but a 10-fold return is an unbelievable, record-breaking, career-making, too-good-to-be true return on investment. I'd be thrilled to death with a 3X return, and happy as the day is long with a 2X return. I'd happy just to see a break-even campaign in a lot of instances. 10X may be what you feel is appropriate, but in marketing worlds, that is not a threshold very often even considered.
If you look at marketing as a financial investment - good financial investments over a long period of time often return 10-15% (obviously huge generalization), and secure investments more like 4%. So if you are deciding to take your money out of the bank and spend on marketing, or leave it in there - and you can make 10X on your money through marketing - you have found the Holy Grail of what to do with your resources..

John,
A $400 silver bedandbreakfast.com subscription is supposed to produce 41 roomnights. With an ADR of $100 that produces a 10-fold increase in Revenues (i.e., $4100). I think revenues is what Bree is talking about. If she's talking about "income" not revenues, the relevant income is contribution to the bottom line. As lodging is a fixed cost business, the incremental guest is worth something like 75% of the ADR. That is, the marginal costs of the extra guest is a few dollars of housekeeping, food, maintenance, and breakfast prep labor, a dollar or two of utilities, flowers, supplies, etc. In other words, the marginal guest is worth a lot, because the inn is only out-of-pocket $30 or $40 a roomnight. Given that B&B ADR realistically is closer to $150, 41 roomnights produces about a $4,600 contribution to the bottom line (.75 x $150 x 41). That's an 11x improvement on the $400 investment.
This relies on your stats of 41 roomnights. You guys say the average rez is two nights so you are saying the average silver BB.com advertiser receives 20 rezs a year or about 3 rezs every two months. This seems plausible to me based on my experience (although I'm not saying to bank on it). The innkeeper will be paying $80 for those three rezs or $27 a rez. That's worth doing if it's truly incremental business. If the B&B is likely to receive the business anyway, it's not so helpful.

 

[Morticia]

"It remains to be seen if bandb will bring in the 10-fold dollars that a good marketing campaign should. But that's a decision for next November. "
I've been working in marketing for almost twenty years... heck I even got my masters in marketing. On average we deliver even more than that. Maybe we've spoiled people, but a 10-fold return is an unbelievable, record-breaking, career-making, too-good-to-be true return on investment. I'd be thrilled to death with a 3X return, and happy as the day is long with a 2X return. I'd happy just to see a break-even campaign in a lot of instances. 10X may be what you feel is appropriate, but in marketing worlds, that is not a threshold very often even considered.
If you look at marketing as a financial investment - good financial investments over a long period of time often return 10-15% (obviously huge generalization), and secure investments more like 4%. So if you are deciding to take your money out of the bank and spend on marketing, or leave it in there - and you can make 10X on your money through marketing - you have found the Holy Grail of what to do with your resources..

"It remains to be seen if bandb will bring in the 10-fold dollars that a good marketing campaign should. But that's a decision for next November. "
I've been working in marketing for almost twenty years... heck I even got my masters in marketing. On average we deliver even more than that. Maybe we've spoiled people, but a 10-fold return is an unbelievable, record-breaking, career-making, too-good-to-be true return on investment. I'd be thrilled to death with a 3X return, and happy as the day is long with a 2X return. I'd happy just to see a break-even campaign in a lot of instances. 10X may be what you feel is appropriate, but in marketing worlds, that is not a threshold very often even considered.
If you look at marketing as a financial investment - good financial investments over a long period of time often return 10-15% (obviously huge generalization), and secure investments more like 4%. So if you are deciding to take your money out of the bank and spend on marketing, or leave it in there - and you can make 10X on your money through marketing - you have found the Holy Grail of what to do with your resources.

John,
Are you seriously telling me I should only expect to pull in $800-$1200 off my $400 paid subscription to bandb? You're kidding, right? Why would I even bother if I could only plan on getting a return of 4 room nights out of my listing in an entire YEAR? I'm expecting that kind of return per MONTH. You can't be serious because you guys keep touting how some innkeepers have increased occupancy by 20% by listing with you. You said yourself somewhere in here that your site has a proven record (in most locations) for very good traffic, lots of click-thrus and low bounce rates, that certainly has to translate into more than $400 in bookings.
If you are serious then your marketing should state that. "Most B&B's on our directory can expect to see and additional $400/year in revenue once their listing is placed."
Break even is a joke. No one lists on a directory to break even. No one buys an ad to break even. And if that's what happens they're spending their money in the wrong place. I expect listing with you to provide real revenue. Simply paying for the listing is not revenue. 2x the listing price isn't worth it, either.
Given this has been discussed to death and we really can't know where guests found our listings online, I always figure that they err in your favor sometimes, and in someone else's favor other times. That said, I would not have renewed if you weren't hitting close to 10X return for me. A little more, a little less, but a good average hovering around 10X these past 5 years.

 

[JunieBJones (JBJ)]

The Winter of Kraft Dinners - Ramen Noodle Innkeepers - Thinning of the Herd - and lastly only the strong survive... Perhaps beating our heads against our monitor is insufficient and we should just all roll over and play dead.
A member since 2003 and we have BandB.com reservations and inquiries knocking our doors down! NOT
I will be on the list on non-renewers for this directory. The towel is officially thrown in. No more rebuttals. If they thought we were not happy when they increased the GC% with zero noticein PEAK SEASON they certainly must not have thought this shot in the arm would be appreciated?
Goodbye Bedandbreakfast.com GO AHEAD RAISE MY RATES ON WEBERVATIONS and this innkeeper will bail on that and let every other innkeeper and aspiring know why.
PS THIS IS AN INNKEEPER FORUM - SUPPOSED TO BE - - FYI in case you thought we were only supposed to talk about baking cookies here - this impacts our lives. I think Steve is very gracious to allow you to regurgitate your sputum over and over here.

 

[Penelope]

John,
Has bandb.com ever considered a "sliding scale" for membership? Something like what PAII or our state association does? 1-4 rooms pay $x for Silver Level, 5-10 rooms pay $x for the same level?
It seems to me to level the playing field a bit more. Those inns with more rooms have the potential to make more from their bandb.com listing..

John,
It seems to me to level the playing field a bit more.

I am not sure that is an intentional goal for them. What seems to be coming thru loud and clear is that "it is what it is". Like it or not, I don't think there will be any resolution on this matter for most on this forum 'Tis a shame to me...my rose-colored glasses kept wanting to see that the little guys matter because one day, I will be a little guy and I want to matter. Maybe holding heads high and pressing on towards the goal is the only way to go.

 

[JBanczak]

"It remains to be seen if bandb will bring in the 10-fold dollars that a good marketing campaign should. But that's a decision for next November. "
I've been working in marketing for almost twenty years... heck I even got my masters in marketing. On average we deliver even more than that. Maybe we've spoiled people, but a 10-fold return is an unbelievable, record-breaking, career-making, too-good-to-be true return on investment. I'd be thrilled to death with a 3X return, and happy as the day is long with a 2X return. I'd happy just to see a break-even campaign in a lot of instances. 10X may be what you feel is appropriate, but in marketing worlds, that is not a threshold very often even considered.
If you look at marketing as a financial investment - good financial investments over a long period of time often return 10-15% (obviously huge generalization), and secure investments more like 4%. So if you are deciding to take your money out of the bank and spend on marketing, or leave it in there - and you can make 10X on your money through marketing - you have found the Holy Grail of what to do with your resources..

John,
A $400 silver bedandbreakfast.com subscription is supposed to produce 41 roomnights. With an ADR of $100 that produces a 10-fold increase in Revenues (i.e., $4100). I think revenues is what Bree is talking about. If she's talking about "income" not revenues, the relevant income is contribution to the bottom line. As lodging is a fixed cost business, the incremental guest is worth something like 75% of the ADR. That is, the marginal costs of the extra guest is a few dollars of housekeeping, food, maintenance, and breakfast prep labor, a dollar or two of utilities, flowers, supplies, etc. In other words, the marginal guest is worth a lot, because the inn is only out-of-pocket $30 or $40 a roomnight. Given that B&B ADR realistically is closer to $150, 41 roomnights produces about a $4,600 contribution to the bottom line (.75 x $150 x 41). That's an 11x improvement on the $400 investment.
This relies on your stats of 41 roomnights. You guys say the average rez is two nights so you are saying the average silver BB.com advertiser receives 20 rezs a year or about 3 rezs every two months. This seems plausible to me based on my experience (although I'm not saying to bank on it). The innkeeper will be paying $80 for those three rezs or $27 a rez. That's worth doing if it's truly incremental business. If the B&B is likely to receive the business anyway, it's not so helpful.
.

Briar -
I think that looks correct - and those are often numbers we hear. That's a great methodical approach to it, and I agree with you. Your point on the incremental part is also important as well.
My point on the marketing return is that 10X is phenomenal. If you require that of investments, than your bar is set quite high. On average, we deliver it - which I think is an outstanding value. But most marketers would classify any postive return as a good investment.
Any time you wind up at the end of the year with more dollars in your pocket because you spent money on effective marketing is a good year.

 

[JBanczak]

"It remains to be seen if bandb will bring in the 10-fold dollars that a good marketing campaign should. But that's a decision for next November. "
I've been working in marketing for almost twenty years... heck I even got my masters in marketing. On average we deliver even more than that. Maybe we've spoiled people, but a 10-fold return is an unbelievable, record-breaking, career-making, too-good-to-be true return on investment. I'd be thrilled to death with a 3X return, and happy as the day is long with a 2X return. I'd happy just to see a break-even campaign in a lot of instances. 10X may be what you feel is appropriate, but in marketing worlds, that is not a threshold very often even considered.
If you look at marketing as a financial investment - good financial investments over a long period of time often return 10-15% (obviously huge generalization), and secure investments more like 4%. So if you are deciding to take your money out of the bank and spend on marketing, or leave it in there - and you can make 10X on your money through marketing - you have found the Holy Grail of what to do with your resources..

"It remains to be seen if bandb will bring in the 10-fold dollars that a good marketing campaign should. But that's a decision for next November. "
I've been working in marketing for almost twenty years... heck I even got my masters in marketing. On average we deliver even more than that. Maybe we've spoiled people, but a 10-fold return is an unbelievable, record-breaking, career-making, too-good-to-be true return on investment. I'd be thrilled to death with a 3X return, and happy as the day is long with a 2X return. I'd happy just to see a break-even campaign in a lot of instances. 10X may be what you feel is appropriate, but in marketing worlds, that is not a threshold very often even considered.
If you look at marketing as a financial investment - good financial investments over a long period of time often return 10-15% (obviously huge generalization), and secure investments more like 4%. So if you are deciding to take your money out of the bank and spend on marketing, or leave it in there - and you can make 10X on your money through marketing - you have found the Holy Grail of what to do with your resources.

John,
Are you seriously telling me I should only expect to pull in $800-$1200 off my $400 paid subscription to bandb? You're kidding, right? Why would I even bother if I could only plan on getting a return of 4 room nights out of my listing in an entire YEAR? I'm expecting that kind of return per MONTH. You can't be serious because you guys keep touting how some innkeepers have increased occupancy by 20% by listing with you. You said yourself somewhere in here that your site has a proven record (in most locations) for very good traffic, lots of click-thrus and low bounce rates, that certainly has to translate into more than $400 in bookings.
If you are serious then your marketing should state that. "Most B&B's on our directory can expect to see and additional $400/year in revenue once their listing is placed."
Break even is a joke. No one lists on a directory to break even. No one buys an ad to break even. And if that's what happens they're spending their money in the wrong place. I expect listing with you to provide real revenue. Simply paying for the listing is not revenue. 2x the listing price isn't worth it, either.
Given this has been discussed to death and we really can't know where guests found our listings online, I always figure that they err in your favor sometimes, and in someone else's favor other times. That said, I would not have renewed if you weren't hitting close to 10X return for me. A little more, a little less, but a good average hovering around 10X these past 5 years.
.

"Are you seriously telling me I should only expect to pull in $800-$1200 off my $400 paid subscription to bandb?"
Do you really think that is what I was saying?
If you require a 10X return on any marketing spend - then you will be disappointed. If you only got $800-$1200 back on your $400 subscription from us, then you would be far below the results we regular see and hear from innkeepers. But if I was an innkeeper, and I got $1200 back from a site that was $400 - I'd pay for that site all day long, and I'd be wealthier because of it.
Particularly becuase $1200 is what you positively, absolutely KNOW you got from the site, there is always business you cannot track, and if at the end of the year you would have more money in the bank than if you didn't advertise there.
The big reason we went monthly is to make the financials more manageable and match revenues better for innkeepers. Going monthly is not easy for us - 12X the CC charges, 12X the billing issues, but you revenues don't all come in during one month, so seems like your costs shouldn't. Putting up $400 in January if you are seasonal slow may be a lot to lay out if you don't see a ton of reservations until April - but with monthly payments your cash outflow is much better , for reservations you might get in April... which should further help make a positive ROI more affordable.

 

[Samster]

Hi everyone,
Long time lurker and aspiring innkeeper here
I just wanted to add my 2 cents in here about bedandbreakfast.com.
I recently planned a trip down to Key West and in my opinion, Trip Advisor is much more helpful than B&B.com. As a consumer I found B&B's site too commercialized and cheesy.
I would focus on improving my Trip Advisor ranking as opposed to paying such a large membership fee with B&B. When I looked for a place to stay I look for those with the most guest reviews and traveler photos. B&B just doesn't have the number of reviews that TA does and thus wasn't as useful. Besides that, obviously since not all inns are members at B&B.com, B&B doesn't list them all. As a consumer I don't like that. I like to have all the possible places in front of me, ranked by what other travelers think, not who pays the most for a top spot.
Maybe I'm weird but those are my thoughts! .

Is there anything about TripAdvisor besides the reviews that you like better?
We usually hear that innkeepers are frustrated - no link to their B&B's, no map (unless you are on Expedia through BB.com - and if you are not - your map link goes to a map of all properties around your inn except you), no amenities link, limited photos if any, the pages are literally covered with hotel advertising, and the reviews are often done by folks who have never stayed at a B&B before.
We understand we need more reviews to make consumers happy - that is for certain. We are over 50,000 reviews now and growing steadily - definitely an area of focus.
.

TripAdvisor obviously is known to most who travel. Many seasoned travelers look for reviews on lodging, restaurants, etc in an area they're planning to visit...the whole ball of wax. It definitely casts a broader net. I think folks will continue to go that route more, rather than the narrower focus of a strictly bed and breakfast inn directory. And guess what? They don't need the url from TA, if they like what they see in the reviews, they just type in the name of our B&B and voila! There it is with Google Business at the top of the organic listings. And the cost to me is zip, nada, zilch. A little time to make sure that my biz listing is up-to-date. This is probably what more & more of us as innkeepers are seeing. Oh, yeah and then there's the whole plethora of portable devices with web browsing capability that pick that up. Maybe this is what one of my fellow inn-mates was referring to when they said online directories may become something of the past. Much like the printed books. Technology marches on.
You know, there was a day when I believed a lot of what y'all were saying and took a lot on faith. Back in the day so to speak...
Now, if you're going to talk numbers and facts, ROI, yada yada...that's what I'm going to look at. I just checked my rez system report and in 6 months with y'all, I've had one referral from you that was a booking. Luckily for you, it was a 4 day stay. So, my net on that probably paid for my listing on your directory. Am I looking for a lot more than that? You bet! Because you and Eric both told me to expect it!!

And you keep telling me, and telling me, and telling me. So, I'll keep watching this. Thanks for the info.

 

[happykeeper]

Thank you to everyone for your great comments and thoughts.
Copperhead- Wow! I wish I could have said that.
John Eric- I am sorry that I couldn't be more civil in my last post.
Re: TripAdvisor VS. BNB.com NO COMPARISON
Almost half of our guests mention TripAdvisor
NONE of our guests have mentioned BNB.COM
As to Expedia- We have asked them in three different tries to update our information. The remnants from our Online Booking was a horrible example of what happens when you stop the program.
The place to be is in the SEO of your website and getting coverage in publications and newspapers. GOGGLE GOGGLE GOGGLE MAPS.
We are furiously working on that and as soon as we see we are getting enough exposure in the keywords that fit for us....you can thin us out of your herd. I have a lot to learn still, but I am getting there. Like many here, I don't renew for any other reason than I think I still have to.