Gift cards

[inncogneeto]

Yellowsocks wrote:
Eric Goldreyer wrote:
Why do you say the 8-9% is "baloney"? If our average gift card sell is $150 (the part the innkeeper pays the commission on) and the average stay at a B&B is over $300, what would the effective commission rate be? Should be somewhere south of 10%...? I realize this is an "average" number though and will be different for every innkeeper...Which answers your own question about why I say 8-9% is baloney. If you prefer, I'll say that 8-9% is wishful thinking that you've convinced yourself. The average stay at my B&B is no where near $300.
*************************************************************************
I was not referring to your specific property or anyone else's. As I stated I was using hard data - our average sell ($150) and the industry's ADR ($172 or so). So it is not baloney.
We realize that innkeeper's have costs. That doesn't mean are willing to subsidize them by losing money on a program to drive them business. Your guests have costs as well. Do you take that into account in YOUR pricing? We are in business to drive business to Inns and we need to make a positive return on our investement.

Wal-Mart - I assume you shop at the same one or two walmarts all the time and that you don't drive all around checking out different ones. We are in about 400 out of nearly 2,000. So it is not suprising to me that you have not seen us in a WalMart.

Full-page ads - Check out the Oct-Dec issue of SkyMall magazine, page 9. Sits in planes flown by more than 150,000,000 people over three months during the busiest gift time of the year.

The "deals with travel industry leaders to give innkeepers an opporunity to get exposure in the leading travel sites' refers to the exact type of thing I am doing right now. I am in Las vegas at the EyeForTravel conference meeting with companies to get our member properties more visibility on other top travel sites. I don't see any other B&B directories doing anything like that. We actually have 2 full time folks that work on business development to get more exposure for our members.

Eric.

>>Your guests have costs as well. Do you take that into account in YOUR pricing?
Yes, as a matter of fact, we do and we are doing everything in our power NOT to raise our rates to cover the rising costs of EVERYTHING, so we don't lose more customers!
We have to cover heat and food costs which are sky-high right now and we know that our guests have to cover the costs of gas for travel (if they can find a filling station with gas...) be it planes or cars, it's just not a good time to raise rates, for us or for you! Your pool of resources is a lot bigger than ours, if we drop you, who cares, you are obviously so successful, losing our business wouldn't really matter to you.
We cannot afford to lose business by raising our rates to pay for your services. It's easier and cheaper to drop you.
I've never seen the GC's at Walmart here or in the Skymall catalog when I've flown.

 

[YellowSocks]

Yellowsocks wrote:
Eric Goldreyer wrote:
Why do you say the 8-9% is "baloney"? If our average gift card sell is $150 (the part the innkeeper pays the commission on) and the average stay at a B&B is over $300, what would the effective commission rate be? Should be somewhere south of 10%...? I realize this is an "average" number though and will be different for every innkeeper...Which answers your own question about why I say 8-9% is baloney. If you prefer, I'll say that 8-9% is wishful thinking that you've convinced yourself. The average stay at my B&B is no where near $300.
*************************************************************************
I was not referring to your specific property or anyone else's. As I stated I was using hard data - our average sell ($150) and the industry's ADR ($172 or so). So it is not baloney.
We realize that innkeeper's have costs. That doesn't mean are willing to subsidize them by losing money on a program to drive them business. Your guests have costs as well. Do you take that into account in YOUR pricing? We are in business to drive business to Inns and we need to make a positive return on our investement.

Wal-Mart - I assume you shop at the same one or two walmarts all the time and that you don't drive all around checking out different ones. We are in about 400 out of nearly 2,000. So it is not suprising to me that you have not seen us in a WalMart.

Full-page ads - Check out the Oct-Dec issue of SkyMall magazine, page 9. Sits in planes flown by more than 150,000,000 people over three months during the busiest gift time of the year.

The "deals with travel industry leaders to give innkeepers an opporunity to get exposure in the leading travel sites' refers to the exact type of thing I am doing right now. I am in Las vegas at the EyeForTravel conference meeting with companies to get our member properties more visibility on other top travel sites. I don't see any other B&B directories doing anything like that. We actually have 2 full time folks that work on business development to get more exposure for our members.

Eric.

I was not referring to your specific property or anyone else's. As I stated I was using hard data - our average sell ($150) and the industry's ADR ($172 or so). So it is not baloney.

Hard averages.
So, if someone is above the ADR, is a large property, they do fine. If they are small, in a small town (with correspondingly lower costs), they don't. This is what we've said all along... the program is not good for a small B&B. Us small B&B's struggle to make ends meet. You're out there trying to compete with Marriott, and have the capital to do it. I don't, and cannot provide you capital to do it.

We realize that innkeeper's have costs. That doesn't mean are willing to subsidize them by losing money on a program to drive them business. Your guests have costs as well. Do you take that into account in YOUR pricing? We are in business to drive business to Inns and we need to make a positive return on our investement.

When my costs go up I do not automatically raise my rates... because as my rates go up, so does the price of gas and food and guests decide not to travel at all, or to stay at the Super8 instead of me. Since I can't raise rates I look for other ways to cut my expenses. For example, I've decided to make homemade candies for my room treats, switched to a 5-gallon dispenser of water instead of individual bottles, and used more apples than strawberries.


At some point I have to decide between glam and practicality. Fresh raspberries are elegant and high class, but don't really add to my bottom line. With everything being so tight, I would expect you to consider similar cost cutting measures. Do you really need a print brochure? Could you use a really nice card instead with a web address to a list of participating inns. Do you really need the fancy frou frou you put the card in, heavy cardstock, and all the other frills you've explained to us cost so much? It's just a GC. When I get a GC I shuck all the peripherals, and tuck the card in my wallet until I can use it.


Yes, you have expenses, but you also have the benefit of the income from the purcased GC's that have not yet been redeemed, the 15-20% commission you charge us, and the use of the difference between 15 and 20% which you hold until the end of the year.


You're in Las Vegas meeting and greeting. I'm here folding laundry and scrubbing toilets. And you want more of my money??


Right...
=)
Kk.

 

[JunieBJones (JBJ)]

Well gang this is it in a nutshell. Totally out of touch with innkeepers, totally.
Eric wrote:
We realize that innkeeper's have costs. That doesn't mean are willing to subsidize them by losing money on a program to drive them business. Your guests have costs as well. Do you take that into account in YOUR pricing? We are in business to drive business to Inns and we need to make a positive return on our investement.

 

[Morticia]

Well gang this is it in a nutshell. Totally out of touch with innkeepers, totally.
Eric wrote:
We realize that innkeeper's have costs. That doesn't mean are willing to subsidize them by losing money on a program to drive them business. Your guests have costs as well. Do you take that into account in YOUR pricing? We are in business to drive business to Inns and we need to make a positive return on our investement..

Well gang this is it in a nutshell. Totally out of touch with innkeepers, totally.
Eric wrote:
We realize that innkeeper's have costs. That doesn't mean are willing to subsidize them by losing money on a program to drive them business. Your guests have costs as well. Do you take that into account in YOUR pricing? We are in business to drive business to Inns and we need to make a positive return on our investement.

After reading his comments, I am going to change my pricing model...walk-ins will now pay by what type of car they drive. If they can afford to drive a Mercedes M Class, then the price is $225. If they have a Honda Civic, the price is $125. Then I'll scale for other car models. I'm not sure how that will work for online bookings, but I'll think about it.

It really is a matter of what ROI I get from him and not the college-boy attitude. Right now it is positive ROI. Once I pay the new price it will remain to be seen if he uses the money to drive that much MORE business my way ($800 using the 10 to 1 ratio). If the ROI is not the same or better next year, adios. I will take him up on his oft-repeated, 'If there's no value, don't list with us.' Eventually he will reach that point for many smaller properties and that will be that much more work to attract new properties.
Remember, it's easier & cheaper to keep a repeat guest customer than to recruit a new one.

 

[muirford]

Well gang this is it in a nutshell. Totally out of touch with innkeepers, totally.
Eric wrote:
We realize that innkeeper's have costs. That doesn't mean are willing to subsidize them by losing money on a program to drive them business. Your guests have costs as well. Do you take that into account in YOUR pricing? We are in business to drive business to Inns and we need to make a positive return on our investement..

Well gang this is it in a nutshell. Totally out of touch with innkeepers, totally.
Eric wrote: We realize that innkeeper's have costs. That doesn't mean are willing to subsidize them by losing money on a program to drive them business. Your guests have costs as well. Do you take that into account in YOUR pricing? We are in business to drive business to Inns and we need to make a positive return on our investement.

We haven't raised our rates since Sept 2007 and won't until April 2009. Our business revenue is up about 10% so far this year from last year. Of course, we take guests' issues into account, as well as our own cost structure. NOT raising your prices is a valid business decision as well.

 

[gillumhouse]

Yellowsocks wrote:
Eric Goldreyer wrote:
Why do you say the 8-9% is "baloney"? If our average gift card sell is $150 (the part the innkeeper pays the commission on) and the average stay at a B&B is over $300, what would the effective commission rate be? Should be somewhere south of 10%...? I realize this is an "average" number though and will be different for every innkeeper...Which answers your own question about why I say 8-9% is baloney. If you prefer, I'll say that 8-9% is wishful thinking that you've convinced yourself. The average stay at my B&B is no where near $300.
*************************************************************************
I was not referring to your specific property or anyone else's. As I stated I was using hard data - our average sell ($150) and the industry's ADR ($172 or so). So it is not baloney.
We realize that innkeeper's have costs. That doesn't mean are willing to subsidize them by losing money on a program to drive them business. Your guests have costs as well. Do you take that into account in YOUR pricing? We are in business to drive business to Inns and we need to make a positive return on our investement.

Wal-Mart - I assume you shop at the same one or two walmarts all the time and that you don't drive all around checking out different ones. We are in about 400 out of nearly 2,000. So it is not suprising to me that you have not seen us in a WalMart.

Full-page ads - Check out the Oct-Dec issue of SkyMall magazine, page 9. Sits in planes flown by more than 150,000,000 people over three months during the busiest gift time of the year.

The "deals with travel industry leaders to give innkeepers an opporunity to get exposure in the leading travel sites' refers to the exact type of thing I am doing right now. I am in Las vegas at the EyeForTravel conference meeting with companies to get our member properties more visibility on other top travel sites. I don't see any other B&B directories doing anything like that. We actually have 2 full time folks that work on business development to get more exposure for our members.

Eric.

Tsk. Tsk, Eric. Making assumptions. I have never seen a bandb GC in a Wal-Mart because I do not shop there. Avoid them like the plague! I can't afford to fly (I have been paying your membership fee) so I did not see your full-page ad. My guests rarely fly to get here - no major airports here. The eastern Panhandle being so close to DC does have that possibility though.
Back to the Wally-World, I look at them as a second rate place and would be appalled to find my inn for sale there - and the GC is selling any inn taking it.

 

[aspiringInIdaho]

Well gang this is it in a nutshell. Totally out of touch with innkeepers, totally.
Eric wrote:
We realize that innkeeper's have costs. That doesn't mean are willing to subsidize them by losing money on a program to drive them business. Your guests have costs as well. Do you take that into account in YOUR pricing? We are in business to drive business to Inns and we need to make a positive return on our investement..

Well gang this is it in a nutshell. Totally out of touch with innkeepers, totally.
Eric wrote: We realize that innkeeper's have costs. That doesn't mean are willing to subsidize them by losing money on a program to drive them business. Your guests have costs as well. Do you take that into account in YOUR pricing? We are in business to drive business to Inns and we need to make a positive return on our investement.

We haven't raised our rates since Sept 2007 and won't until April 2009. Our business revenue is up about 10% so far this year from last year. Of course, we take guests' issues into account, as well as our own cost structure. NOT raising your prices is a valid business decision as well.
.

I'm a first-time visitor to this forum and I'm an aspiring innkeeper without the slightest knowledge of nor relationship to any poster of this thread.
But after reading these extremely emotional posts, I feel compelled to comment:
From an outsider's perspective, I think bandb.com's postings have shown restraint and immense good will, patiently explaining and then re-explaining and re-explaining some very BASIC (albeit hard to swallow) economic truths. Hopefully it was instructive to some emotional innkeepers who sound as if they are ENTITLED to something.
If bandb.com is not a good deal for a particular inn, then that inn should opt out. Without whining about the big inns having an advantage, without begrudging bandb.com's profits, without publicly implying they are guilty of some wrongdoing. It's just basic business. Imagine if individual innkeepers were repeatedly challenged on tripadvisor.com to justify their room rates.

 

[swirt]

Well gang this is it in a nutshell. Totally out of touch with innkeepers, totally.
Eric wrote:
We realize that innkeeper's have costs. That doesn't mean are willing to subsidize them by losing money on a program to drive them business. Your guests have costs as well. Do you take that into account in YOUR pricing? We are in business to drive business to Inns and we need to make a positive return on our investement..

Well gang this is it in a nutshell. Totally out of touch with innkeepers, totally.
Eric wrote: We realize that innkeeper's have costs. That doesn't mean are willing to subsidize them by losing money on a program to drive them business. Your guests have costs as well. Do you take that into account in YOUR pricing? We are in business to drive business to Inns and we need to make a positive return on our investement.

We haven't raised our rates since Sept 2007 and won't until April 2009. Our business revenue is up about 10% so far this year from last year. Of course, we take guests' issues into account, as well as our own cost structure. NOT raising your prices is a valid business decision as well.
.

I'm a first-time visitor to this forum and I'm an aspiring innkeeper without the slightest knowledge of nor relationship to any poster of this thread.
But after reading these extremely emotional posts, I feel compelled to comment:
From an outsider's perspective, I think bandb.com's postings have shown restraint and immense good will, patiently explaining and then re-explaining and re-explaining some very BASIC (albeit hard to swallow) economic truths. Hopefully it was instructive to some emotional innkeepers who sound as if they are ENTITLED to something.
If bandb.com is not a good deal for a particular inn, then that inn should opt out. Without whining about the big inns having an advantage, without begrudging bandb.com's profits, without publicly implying they are guilty of some wrongdoing. It's just basic business. Imagine if individual innkeepers were repeatedly challenged on tripadvisor.com to justify their room rates.
.

I am pretty sure that if we had a 7 night stay and when the guest arrived we said "We are raising the rate for your stay on the 6th and seventh day by 30%" we would certainly get some bad reviews on TripAdvisor.

 

[egoodell]

Well gang this is it in a nutshell. Totally out of touch with innkeepers, totally.
Eric wrote:
We realize that innkeeper's have costs. That doesn't mean are willing to subsidize them by losing money on a program to drive them business. Your guests have costs as well. Do you take that into account in YOUR pricing? We are in business to drive business to Inns and we need to make a positive return on our investement..

Well gang this is it in a nutshell. Totally out of touch with innkeepers, totally.
Eric wrote: We realize that innkeeper's have costs. That doesn't mean are willing to subsidize them by losing money on a program to drive them business. Your guests have costs as well. Do you take that into account in YOUR pricing? We are in business to drive business to Inns and we need to make a positive return on our investement.

We haven't raised our rates since Sept 2007 and won't until April 2009. Our business revenue is up about 10% so far this year from last year. Of course, we take guests' issues into account, as well as our own cost structure. NOT raising your prices is a valid business decision as well.
.

I'm a first-time visitor to this forum and I'm an aspiring innkeeper without the slightest knowledge of nor relationship to any poster of this thread.
But after reading these extremely emotional posts, I feel compelled to comment:
From an outsider's perspective, I think bandb.com's postings have shown restraint and immense good will, patiently explaining and then re-explaining and re-explaining some very BASIC (albeit hard to swallow) economic truths. Hopefully it was instructive to some emotional innkeepers who sound as if they are ENTITLED to something.
If bandb.com is not a good deal for a particular inn, then that inn should opt out. Without whining about the big inns having an advantage, without begrudging bandb.com's profits, without publicly implying they are guilty of some wrongdoing. It's just basic business. Imagine if individual innkeepers were repeatedly challenged on tripadvisor.com to justify their room rates.
.

As you said, you are not an innkeeper and have no experience. Trust me, when you are your opinions will change fast when you are in the trenches.
Riki

 

[agoodman]

Stick my neck out here, ref your comment to Rikki - I AM an Innkeeper, and I agree that WE HAVE A choice, if we want to accept their gift cards, that is our choice and we have to accept THEIR conditions, if we don't want to accept them, no one is sticking a knife at our throat to do so.
I see so many posts about "our Inn's policies" - well in the same way the guest has the choice to accept or not accept a policy, B&B.com has their policies, and we can take it or leave it.
(which is not to say I don't agree 100% that their comm is too high!!)

 

[muirford]

Well gang this is it in a nutshell. Totally out of touch with innkeepers, totally.
Eric wrote:
We realize that innkeeper's have costs. That doesn't mean are willing to subsidize them by losing money on a program to drive them business. Your guests have costs as well. Do you take that into account in YOUR pricing? We are in business to drive business to Inns and we need to make a positive return on our investement..

Well gang this is it in a nutshell. Totally out of touch with innkeepers, totally.
Eric wrote: We realize that innkeeper's have costs. That doesn't mean are willing to subsidize them by losing money on a program to drive them business. Your guests have costs as well. Do you take that into account in YOUR pricing? We are in business to drive business to Inns and we need to make a positive return on our investement.

We haven't raised our rates since Sept 2007 and won't until April 2009. Our business revenue is up about 10% so far this year from last year. Of course, we take guests' issues into account, as well as our own cost structure. NOT raising your prices is a valid business decision as well.
.

I'm a first-time visitor to this forum and I'm an aspiring innkeeper without the slightest knowledge of nor relationship to any poster of this thread.
But after reading these extremely emotional posts, I feel compelled to comment:
From an outsider's perspective, I think bandb.com's postings have shown restraint and immense good will, patiently explaining and then re-explaining and re-explaining some very BASIC (albeit hard to swallow) economic truths. Hopefully it was instructive to some emotional innkeepers who sound as if they are ENTITLED to something.
If bandb.com is not a good deal for a particular inn, then that inn should opt out. Without whining about the big inns having an advantage, without begrudging bandb.com's profits, without publicly implying they are guilty of some wrongdoing. It's just basic business. Imagine if individual innkeepers were repeatedly challenged on tripadvisor.com to justify their room rates.
.

I totally agree that we as innkeepers have to make the basic business choices about which directories to belong to and which gift cards to take - I certainly have. If we choose to opt out of a service, we certainly have a right, maybe even an obligation to discuss why we make that choice. If that sounds like whining to you, tough. This forum is for sharing information about why we make the decisions we make, not just what those decisions are.
As to B&Bs having to justify their room rates on TA - have you actually looked at TA? B&Bs are rated on that particular category in every TA review - the one called Value. There are hundreds of reviews that say this place wasn't worth the money I paid for it. Here's just one.
Feel free to follow the bandb.com business model yourself. Send an email to the 144 rooms you have booked for the month of October telling them that you've decided to raise your rates 5%. See what kind of response you get.

 

[agoodman]

Well gang this is it in a nutshell. Totally out of touch with innkeepers, totally.
Eric wrote:
We realize that innkeeper's have costs. That doesn't mean are willing to subsidize them by losing money on a program to drive them business. Your guests have costs as well. Do you take that into account in YOUR pricing? We are in business to drive business to Inns and we need to make a positive return on our investement..

Well gang this is it in a nutshell. Totally out of touch with innkeepers, totally.
Eric wrote: We realize that innkeeper's have costs. That doesn't mean are willing to subsidize them by losing money on a program to drive them business. Your guests have costs as well. Do you take that into account in YOUR pricing? We are in business to drive business to Inns and we need to make a positive return on our investement.

We haven't raised our rates since Sept 2007 and won't until April 2009. Our business revenue is up about 10% so far this year from last year. Of course, we take guests' issues into account, as well as our own cost structure. NOT raising your prices is a valid business decision as well.
.

I'm a first-time visitor to this forum and I'm an aspiring innkeeper without the slightest knowledge of nor relationship to any poster of this thread.
But after reading these extremely emotional posts, I feel compelled to comment:
From an outsider's perspective, I think bandb.com's postings have shown restraint and immense good will, patiently explaining and then re-explaining and re-explaining some very BASIC (albeit hard to swallow) economic truths. Hopefully it was instructive to some emotional innkeepers who sound as if they are ENTITLED to something.
If bandb.com is not a good deal for a particular inn, then that inn should opt out. Without whining about the big inns having an advantage, without begrudging bandb.com's profits, without publicly implying they are guilty of some wrongdoing. It's just basic business. Imagine if individual innkeepers were repeatedly challenged on tripadvisor.com to justify their room rates.
.

I totally agree that we as innkeepers have to make the basic business choices about which directories to belong to and which gift cards to take - I certainly have. If we choose to opt out of a service, we certainly have a right, maybe even an obligation to discuss why we make that choice. If that sounds like whining to you, tough. This forum is for sharing information about why we make the decisions we make, not just what those decisions are.
As to B&Bs having to justify their room rates on TA - have you actually looked at TA? B&Bs are rated on that particular category in every TA review - the one called Value. There are hundreds of reviews that say this place wasn't worth the money I paid for it. Here's just one.
Feel free to follow the bandb.com business model yourself. Send an email to the 144 rooms you have booked for the month of October telling them that you've decided to raise your rates 5%. See what kind of response you get.
.

Sorry if you thought I was whining - the 2 (me raising my rates and them raising their comm - are 2 totally different things.
If I raise my rates that is MY decision, as it is my decision as to whether to partipcate in their program. Hence me decision to pull my inn from bbonline.
We cannot tell them (B&B.com) how to run their business, we can CHOOSE not to participate in their programs, and by pulling out we may or may not influence their decision to change their structure.
and yes I have looked at TA, I have reviews posted there. And if there are some idiot guests that book at room at X dollars. despite TA saying "value" - well then that guest's "values" are screwed up. Value is a perception.
$49 may be good value to someone on a budget, $250 may be good value to someone that normally pays $400.
Has anyone tried contacting TA and asking that B&B's are classified as B&B's/Inns rather than as "value?".

 

[JunieBJones (JBJ)]

Well gang this is it in a nutshell. Totally out of touch with innkeepers, totally.
Eric wrote:
We realize that innkeeper's have costs. That doesn't mean are willing to subsidize them by losing money on a program to drive them business. Your guests have costs as well. Do you take that into account in YOUR pricing? We are in business to drive business to Inns and we need to make a positive return on our investement..

Well gang this is it in a nutshell. Totally out of touch with innkeepers, totally.
Eric wrote: We realize that innkeeper's have costs. That doesn't mean are willing to subsidize them by losing money on a program to drive them business. Your guests have costs as well. Do you take that into account in YOUR pricing? We are in business to drive business to Inns and we need to make a positive return on our investement.

We haven't raised our rates since Sept 2007 and won't until April 2009. Our business revenue is up about 10% so far this year from last year. Of course, we take guests' issues into account, as well as our own cost structure. NOT raising your prices is a valid business decision as well.
.

I'm a first-time visitor to this forum and I'm an aspiring innkeeper without the slightest knowledge of nor relationship to any poster of this thread.
But after reading these extremely emotional posts, I feel compelled to comment:
From an outsider's perspective, I think bandb.com's postings have shown restraint and immense good will, patiently explaining and then re-explaining and re-explaining some very BASIC (albeit hard to swallow) economic truths. Hopefully it was instructive to some emotional innkeepers who sound as if they are ENTITLED to something.
If bandb.com is not a good deal for a particular inn, then that inn should opt out. Without whining about the big inns having an advantage, without begrudging bandb.com's profits, without publicly implying they are guilty of some wrongdoing. It's just basic business. Imagine if individual innkeepers were repeatedly challenged on tripadvisor.com to justify their room rates.
.

I totally agree that we as innkeepers have to make the basic business choices about which directories to belong to and which gift cards to take - I certainly have. If we choose to opt out of a service, we certainly have a right, maybe even an obligation to discuss why we make that choice. If that sounds like whining to you, tough. This forum is for sharing information about why we make the decisions we make, not just what those decisions are.
As to B&Bs having to justify their room rates on TA - have you actually looked at TA? B&Bs are rated on that particular category in every TA review - the one called Value. There are hundreds of reviews that say this place wasn't worth the money I paid for it. Here's just one.
Feel free to follow the bandb.com business model yourself. Send an email to the 144 rooms you have booked for the month of October telling them that you've decided to raise your rates 5%. See what kind of response you get.
.

Sorry if you thought I was whining - the 2 (me raising my rates and them raising their comm - are 2 totally different things.
If I raise my rates that is MY decision, as it is my decision as to whether to partipcate in their program. Hence me decision to pull my inn from bbonline.
We cannot tell them (B&B.com) how to run their business, we can CHOOSE not to participate in their programs, and by pulling out we may or may not influence their decision to change their structure.
and yes I have looked at TA, I have reviews posted there. And if there are some idiot guests that book at room at X dollars. despite TA saying "value" - well then that guest's "values" are screwed up. Value is a perception.
$49 may be good value to someone on a budget, $250 may be good value to someone that normally pays $400.
Has anyone tried contacting TA and asking that B&B's are classified as B&B's/Inns rather than as "value?".
.

Sorry if you thought I was whining - the 2 (me raising my rates and them raising their comm - are 2 totally different things.
If I raise my rates that is MY decision, as it is my decision as to whether to partipcate in their program. Hence me decision to pull my inn from bbonline.
We cannot tell them (B&B.com) how to run their business, we can CHOOSE not to participate in their programs, and by pulling out we may or may not influence their decision to change their structure.
and yes I have looked at TA, I have reviews posted there. And if there are some idiot guests that book at room at X dollars. despite TA saying "value" - well then that guest's "values" are screwed up. Value is a perception.
$49 may be good value to someone on a budget, $250 may be good value to someone that normally pays $400.
Has anyone tried contacting TA and asking that B&B's are classified as B&B's/Inns rather than as "value?".

I will say once you are in, you are for life on the BandB.com Gift Card prgm, you are printed in their booklets as accepting them, you are also on their PDF listing on the website as accepting them. So just to clarify, it is not as easy as JUST OPTING OUT.
I will also add that BBONLINE is the #1 bang for my buck. For me they are the top referrer AFTER google searches, so that is pretty dang good. (But that is here, not there). We all have to do what we need to do to bring in guests. Quality guests mean alot more to some than others. Hotel-mentality guests can ruin your whole weekend, like I had this past weekend with a BandB.com gift card guest. But we accepted it and then called BandB.com to redeem it and hand over our % to them. Sometimes we have to do these things for the guests, as they are important to us!
Sometimes we say screw it!

 

[EmptyNest]

Well gang this is it in a nutshell. Totally out of touch with innkeepers, totally.
Eric wrote:
We realize that innkeeper's have costs. That doesn't mean are willing to subsidize them by losing money on a program to drive them business. Your guests have costs as well. Do you take that into account in YOUR pricing? We are in business to drive business to Inns and we need to make a positive return on our investement..

Well gang this is it in a nutshell. Totally out of touch with innkeepers, totally.
Eric wrote: We realize that innkeeper's have costs. That doesn't mean are willing to subsidize them by losing money on a program to drive them business. Your guests have costs as well. Do you take that into account in YOUR pricing? We are in business to drive business to Inns and we need to make a positive return on our investement.

We haven't raised our rates since Sept 2007 and won't until April 2009. Our business revenue is up about 10% so far this year from last year. Of course, we take guests' issues into account, as well as our own cost structure. NOT raising your prices is a valid business decision as well.
.

I'm a first-time visitor to this forum and I'm an aspiring innkeeper without the slightest knowledge of nor relationship to any poster of this thread.
But after reading these extremely emotional posts, I feel compelled to comment:
From an outsider's perspective, I think bandb.com's postings have shown restraint and immense good will, patiently explaining and then re-explaining and re-explaining some very BASIC (albeit hard to swallow) economic truths. Hopefully it was instructive to some emotional innkeepers who sound as if they are ENTITLED to something.
If bandb.com is not a good deal for a particular inn, then that inn should opt out. Without whining about the big inns having an advantage, without begrudging bandb.com's profits, without publicly implying they are guilty of some wrongdoing. It's just basic business. Imagine if individual innkeepers were repeatedly challenged on tripadvisor.com to justify their room rates.
.

I totally agree that we as innkeepers have to make the basic business choices about which directories to belong to and which gift cards to take - I certainly have. If we choose to opt out of a service, we certainly have a right, maybe even an obligation to discuss why we make that choice. If that sounds like whining to you, tough. This forum is for sharing information about why we make the decisions we make, not just what those decisions are.
As to B&Bs having to justify their room rates on TA - have you actually looked at TA? B&Bs are rated on that particular category in every TA review - the one called Value. There are hundreds of reviews that say this place wasn't worth the money I paid for it. Here's just one.
Feel free to follow the bandb.com business model yourself. Send an email to the 144 rooms you have booked for the month of October telling them that you've decided to raise your rates 5%. See what kind of response you get.
.

Sorry if you thought I was whining - the 2 (me raising my rates and them raising their comm - are 2 totally different things.
If I raise my rates that is MY decision, as it is my decision as to whether to partipcate in their program. Hence me decision to pull my inn from bbonline.
We cannot tell them (B&B.com) how to run their business, we can CHOOSE not to participate in their programs, and by pulling out we may or may not influence their decision to change their structure.
and yes I have looked at TA, I have reviews posted there. And if there are some idiot guests that book at room at X dollars. despite TA saying "value" - well then that guest's "values" are screwed up. Value is a perception.
$49 may be good value to someone on a budget, $250 may be good value to someone that normally pays $400.
Has anyone tried contacting TA and asking that B&B's are classified as B&B's/Inns rather than as "value?".
.

Contacting TA...give me a break!!
Haven't you read the past discussions here from the Jay at PAII.
He's the brave one and THE ONLY ONE, who has been able to meet and talk directly with TA. I am sure this was part of his discussions as well.

 

[agoodman]

What gets me is bedandbreakfast.com whine explain that their costs to execute the program are so high and that's why they have to pass so much off to the B&B's. Well hello? They are the ones who designed and implemented the program (with apparently little to no consideration for the B&B's they are supposedly partnering with) so they had and still have control over the nature of the expenses.
John and Eric have been on the forums and heard the concerns of innkeepers that the commission is too high and that the stats they quote about effective commission do NOT apply to many many many innkeepers. BanB.com could have chosen to address those concerns and try to bring their expenses down in order to make the program more equitable. In fact that would have been an intelligent business move. But instead they plug their ears, tell us how great they are for the industry and jack up their commission. Nice.
And to give an example of an expense that could be reduced: the print books. It costs a lot of money to print 64-page colour books, and it costs to ship them. Why, I would like to know, does an online directory feel it is necessary to distribute printed books? John's told that the membership fee for the directory is so high because of all he does to drive traffic there. Well why not direct the GC users to the online directory instead of giving them a paper option?
And in terms of the high cost of packaging and shipping the GCs: why not manage those expenses better? Perhaps give the purchaser the option of Free Standard packaging and shipping (nice envelope, postcard directing recipient to website, standard ground mail) and offer an upgraded package whereby the purchaser can pay a little extra to have more bells and whistles around the card and maybe overnight delivery. Just some ideas off the top of my head how bedandbreakfast.com could look at cutting down their expenses instead of sticking it to the small B&B owner.
All of course is my high-falutin' and not very humble opinion..

The fraud /theft rate on mailed gift cards is enormous. As for printed books, (like the ones from iloveinns), I know many people who (1) like to give a "physical" gift and / or (2) keep them in the car for research.
Again I AM NOT justifying the comm increase!!

 

[agoodman]

I have no affiliation with B&B.com other than a user of their site and the options they provide, however I for one am appalled at how some of you have responded to Eric, who took the time to respond to your posts.
YES he may not have said what we wanted to har "ok guys I am giving you all a free year / $50 featured property dollars / discounting the comm" - but he did take the time to reply, and their was very little courtesy considering the time he took to reply to each issue.
This is a GHASTLY representation of Innkeepers, we are all suffering, we all have increased costs and we can only make decisions about those things in our control.
Why - after your replies to the time he has taken, do you think he would make one little bit of effort.??
This is HORRIBLE and I for one am embarrased. Feel free to reove my sign in priviledges from this site if I perhaps do not fit in with the wrath and anger I see here.

 

[egoodell]

Stick my neck out here, ref your comment to Rikki - I AM an Innkeeper, and I agree that WE HAVE A choice, if we want to accept their gift cards, that is our choice and we have to accept THEIR conditions, if we don't want to accept them, no one is sticking a knife at our throat to do so.
I see so many posts about "our Inn's policies" - well in the same way the guest has the choice to accept or not accept a policy, B&B.com has their policies, and we can take it or leave it.
(which is not to say I don't agree 100% that their comm is too high!!).

I know you are an innkeeper. I was talking to aspiringInIdaho
We have had a number of aspirings tell us that we're wrong about this or that.
When these aspirings are actually walking the walk then I'll listen to them.
RIki

 

[Morticia]

Well gang this is it in a nutshell. Totally out of touch with innkeepers, totally.
Eric wrote:
We realize that innkeeper's have costs. That doesn't mean are willing to subsidize them by losing money on a program to drive them business. Your guests have costs as well. Do you take that into account in YOUR pricing? We are in business to drive business to Inns and we need to make a positive return on our investement..

Well gang this is it in a nutshell. Totally out of touch with innkeepers, totally.
Eric wrote: We realize that innkeeper's have costs. That doesn't mean are willing to subsidize them by losing money on a program to drive them business. Your guests have costs as well. Do you take that into account in YOUR pricing? We are in business to drive business to Inns and we need to make a positive return on our investement.

We haven't raised our rates since Sept 2007 and won't until April 2009. Our business revenue is up about 10% so far this year from last year. Of course, we take guests' issues into account, as well as our own cost structure. NOT raising your prices is a valid business decision as well.
.

I'm a first-time visitor to this forum and I'm an aspiring innkeeper without the slightest knowledge of nor relationship to any poster of this thread.
But after reading these extremely emotional posts, I feel compelled to comment:
From an outsider's perspective, I think bandb.com's postings have shown restraint and immense good will, patiently explaining and then re-explaining and re-explaining some very BASIC (albeit hard to swallow) economic truths. Hopefully it was instructive to some emotional innkeepers who sound as if they are ENTITLED to something.
If bandb.com is not a good deal for a particular inn, then that inn should opt out. Without whining about the big inns having an advantage, without begrudging bandb.com's profits, without publicly implying they are guilty of some wrongdoing. It's just basic business. Imagine if individual innkeepers were repeatedly challenged on tripadvisor.com to justify their room rates.
.

Amazing that the only thread you found for your first ever post was this one. Hopefully some of the other information here will be more palatable to you. Eric has done wonders for his business, but he, like every other business owner, needs to know why his clients are dropping his programs. Maybe he can make adjustments. He says not, and, as you have seen, many here voted with their dollars and dropped his programs. That's just business. And he knows it's just business because he's told us it's just business, he's told us he is passionate about his business (which, btw, so are all of us, passionate about our businesses). He doesn't take it personally, no one else should either. Certainly not an aspiring innkeeper who's never met any of the players here.
Other online directories HAVE made adjustments citing poor economic times as the reason they want to sign up MORE businesses rather than raise rates for the clients they already have.
When you're up and running you'll make these decisions, too, on where to spend your dollars. Many inns do not have the issues some others do. Many inns are making a tidy profit and a 30% increase in dues is not worth mentioning. If that is your business model, then you need not worry about rate increases. If business slows and everything around is increasing except your rates and occupancy, you may find a bit of frustration creeping in. Maybe not. It's all part of the passion.
Hopefully, you can use some of the other info here to make balanced decisions based on the experience of many. Then again, I think you made the only point you came here to make and now you'll be moving on. Que sera, sera.

 

[GeorgiaGirl]

Me thinks aspiringInIdaho is not a random poster......I'm pretty good with my gut reaction, not wrong a lot of the times...

 

[muirford]

Well gang this is it in a nutshell. Totally out of touch with innkeepers, totally.
Eric wrote:
We realize that innkeeper's have costs. That doesn't mean are willing to subsidize them by losing money on a program to drive them business. Your guests have costs as well. Do you take that into account in YOUR pricing? We are in business to drive business to Inns and we need to make a positive return on our investement..

Well gang this is it in a nutshell. Totally out of touch with innkeepers, totally.
Eric wrote: We realize that innkeeper's have costs. That doesn't mean are willing to subsidize them by losing money on a program to drive them business. Your guests have costs as well. Do you take that into account in YOUR pricing? We are in business to drive business to Inns and we need to make a positive return on our investement.

We haven't raised our rates since Sept 2007 and won't until April 2009. Our business revenue is up about 10% so far this year from last year. Of course, we take guests' issues into account, as well as our own cost structure. NOT raising your prices is a valid business decision as well.
.

I'm a first-time visitor to this forum and I'm an aspiring innkeeper without the slightest knowledge of nor relationship to any poster of this thread.
But after reading these extremely emotional posts, I feel compelled to comment:
From an outsider's perspective, I think bandb.com's postings have shown restraint and immense good will, patiently explaining and then re-explaining and re-explaining some very BASIC (albeit hard to swallow) economic truths. Hopefully it was instructive to some emotional innkeepers who sound as if they are ENTITLED to something.
If bandb.com is not a good deal for a particular inn, then that inn should opt out. Without whining about the big inns having an advantage, without begrudging bandb.com's profits, without publicly implying they are guilty of some wrongdoing. It's just basic business. Imagine if individual innkeepers were repeatedly challenged on tripadvisor.com to justify their room rates.
.

I totally agree that we as innkeepers have to make the basic business choices about which directories to belong to and which gift cards to take - I certainly have. If we choose to opt out of a service, we certainly have a right, maybe even an obligation to discuss why we make that choice. If that sounds like whining to you, tough. This forum is for sharing information about why we make the decisions we make, not just what those decisions are.
As to B&Bs having to justify their room rates on TA - have you actually looked at TA? B&Bs are rated on that particular category in every TA review - the one called Value. There are hundreds of reviews that say this place wasn't worth the money I paid for it. Here's just one.
Feel free to follow the bandb.com business model yourself. Send an email to the 144 rooms you have booked for the month of October telling them that you've decided to raise your rates 5%. See what kind of response you get.
.

Sorry if you thought I was whining - the 2 (me raising my rates and them raising their comm - are 2 totally different things.
If I raise my rates that is MY decision, as it is my decision as to whether to partipcate in their program. Hence me decision to pull my inn from bbonline.
We cannot tell them (B&B.com) how to run their business, we can CHOOSE not to participate in their programs, and by pulling out we may or may not influence their decision to change their structure.
and yes I have looked at TA, I have reviews posted there. And if there are some idiot guests that book at room at X dollars. despite TA saying "value" - well then that guest's "values" are screwed up. Value is a perception.
$49 may be good value to someone on a budget, $250 may be good value to someone that normally pays $400.
Has anyone tried contacting TA and asking that B&B's are classified as B&B's/Inns rather than as "value?".
.

My reply was to aspiringinIdaho , not to you, AG1963. I don't think I said anyone was whining - I said that if our responses sounded like whining to Idaho, tough for him/her.
On TA, B&Bs are not marked as Value options - I haven't even seen such a characterization on TA's site other than in the paid advertising. My reference is to a rating for every review which says value - 1 dot to 5 dots. Every review includes the opportunity for the guest to saywhether the value of the accommodation was good or poor. I'm not really sure what your point is about 'guests values' - I am pointing out that B&Bs (and any lodging listed on TA) are always rated on their rates in relation to value. That is in direct response to Idaho suggesting that B&Bs don't have to justify their rates in the same way that bandb.com was asked to justify theirs. That's just not true.
It's ridiculous to suggest that a vendor doesn't have to justify their cost to you. Why do you think bandb.com takes the time to come onto various forums to state their case? They state their case when they send you an invoice, or when they send you the monthly referral statistics. Ads in magazines, workshops at conferences, webinars - all of those things are to convince you that they give a good value for the money. We have plenty of other vendors who have been questioned on here as to the value they provide for their services and expense.