When two rights go wrong

[JBloggs]

[FONT= 'Times New Roman']When two rights go wrong[/FONT]
Ottawa Citizen
The CornerStone Bed and Breakfast that he operated out of his home since 2003 was closed on March 30 following court procedures and an Ontario Human Rights ... [/h3]
Note - - I need a big RED FLAG ALERT button for some of these threads...be warned on this one, it might awaken a few and infuriate others, but this is the world in which we run our businesses, so we need to be ahead of the curve and know the laws of the land and proactive. This is posted for our own good. Let the discussions begin...

 

[Breakfast Diva]

We can argue for many hours on whether it's "right" or not, but the bottom line is it is ILLEGAL to refuse a room to someone with a guide dog. PERIOD.
I don't know if this poor guy was targeted or not, but there are people out there who do target small businesses like ours. Yes, it is your home, but the minute you open your doors and charge money for people to stay in your home, you are a business. You also can not charge them any more for that room because of the additional cleaning it will take.
When I was a new innkeeper I did turn away someone on the phone who said they had a guide dog. I didn't know better. Thank goodness it didn't come back to bite me!

 

[gillumhouse]

I know I cannot turn away a guide dog and would not. To me the sad thing is that the health and welfare of the man do not count - period - only the rights of the blind man. What I find interesting is that this was the second time they had been turned down that day. OK, what happened to the first place? Did they go after them also?
Martin, meanwhile, denies any suggestion that CornerStone was targeted. It was the second place the couple had been refused that day and he was upset.

 

[swirt]

Here is a link/ reminder for the ADA guidelines regarding service animals (if any US innkeepers here hasn't read them, it is well worth reading them through at least once)
https://www.innspiring.com/resources/legal/service-animal-obligations
The interesting dilema is what if you have a guest with a service animal and a guest with an allergy.... the rights of each come into conflict.
I don't feel a lot of sympathy for the owner. It doesn't sound like he had done his homework ahead of time and got caught unaware. You can't call a B&B a private residence. The problem with the "allergy excuse" is that allergies are largely undocumented.. so if it were an allowed loophole, everyone (or at least larger numbers) would use it as a reason for denying service.
It would make it so much easier if service animals were given credentials. We had a "service" dog here a few weeks back and I am willing to bet that it was not a service dog. Granted the dog was very nice and caused no problem, but it was only 10 months old (I don't know of any service animal training that is completed by the time a dog is less than a year old.) Frankly it was more annoying just having it eat at the back of my brain that these people were lying to me....If there were some credentials that could be asked for, that would at least have made me feel better about it. I knew that I could have asked what service the dog provides, but I didn't bother...because you can't judge the value of the service.

 

[Copperhead]

Here is a link/ reminder for the ADA guidelines regarding service animals (if any US innkeepers here hasn't read them, it is well worth reading them through at least once)
https://www.innspiring.com/resources/legal/service-animal-obligations
The interesting dilema is what if you have a guest with a service animal and a guest with an allergy.... the rights of each come into conflict.
I don't feel a lot of sympathy for the owner. It doesn't sound like he had done his homework ahead of time and got caught unaware. You can't call a B&B a private residence. The problem with the "allergy excuse" is that allergies are largely undocumented.. so if it were an allowed loophole, everyone (or at least larger numbers) would use it as a reason for denying service.
It would make it so much easier if service animals were given credentials. We had a "service" dog here a few weeks back and I am willing to bet that it was not a service dog. Granted the dog was very nice and caused no problem, but it was only 10 months old (I don't know of any service animal training that is completed by the time a dog is less than a year old.) Frankly it was more annoying just having it eat at the back of my brain that these people were lying to me....If there were some credentials that could be asked for, that would at least have made me feel better about it. I knew that I could have asked what service the dog provides, but I didn't bother...because you can't judge the value of the service..

The interesting dilema is what if you have a guest with a service animal and a guest with an allergy.... the rights of each come into conflict.
It would make it so much easier if service animals were given credentials.

Very insighful.
The credentials idea is a wonderful one. This would be good for many reasons, not just B&B's but also restaurants and grocery stores. It just kills me to see these little purse size dogs tucked away in the grocery and I see it often. Guess that is a comfort dog?

 

[sgirouard]

This piqued my curiousity - I thought I had the impression (from reading boards, I admit) that all true service animals are documented. Not so.
http://www.ada.gov/qasrvc.htm
I find the response to question #3 especially interesting: While a service animal may ro may not carry certification, the last sentence says "you may not insist on proof of state certification before permitting the service animal to accompany the person with a disability." Goodness.
And #4 says the disabled person may not be segregated from other customers. Which presents quite a dilemma, I would imagine, if you have allergy-suffering guests who elect to stay at a BnB because of a no pets policy, only to find a service animal in the building.
I found the
Texas State Law helpful in clarifying what a service dog is (although this does not seem to apply to emotional support animals, which are also covered under the ADA, IIRC).

 

[JBloggs]

Service animals are not for the blind only, a friend of ours has severe epilepsy and her dog alerts her just before a seizure. It is a small pomeranian type dog. It wears no special collar or anything. But it does go every where she goes. She has had multiple brain surgeries to try to correct this.

 

[Happy Harpie]

My wife and I personally stayed at the Cornerstone 4 years ago. It is(was) a fabulous B&B and Mr. McCue and his partner were the epitome of professionalism They were very informed, amiable and down-to-earth. Albeit I sympathise with the Martins, I firmly believe that they were way out of line and should have delved into the matter more deeply before going off half-cocked and filing suit. I fully realize that a seeing-eye dog has the right to stay in a B&B, even if they don't accept pets, however, each circumstance is different and if I was the owner and had the same problems I would have done the same as Mr McCue. Going through all that S$#@ for a measily $700.00 and an apology was definitely not worth it. Both parties have a very bitter taste in their mouths and as our B&B is only 6 hours from Ottawa, I will most definitely keep the Martin name in my "Sorry we are all booked up" list.
Harry

 

[Breakfast Diva]

My wife and I personally stayed at the Cornerstone 4 years ago. It is(was) a fabulous B&B and Mr. McCue and his partner were the epitome of professionalism They were very informed, amiable and down-to-earth. Albeit I sympathise with the Martins, I firmly believe that they were way out of line and should have delved into the matter more deeply before going off half-cocked and filing suit. I fully realize that a seeing-eye dog has the right to stay in a B&B, even if they don't accept pets, however, each circumstance is different and if I was the owner and had the same problems I would have done the same as Mr McCue. Going through all that S$#@ for a measily $700.00 and an apology was definitely not worth it. Both parties have a very bitter taste in their mouths and as our B&B is only 6 hours from Ottawa, I will most definitely keep the Martin name in my "Sorry we are all booked up" list.
Harry.

if I was the owner and had the same problems I would have done the same as Mr McCue.

Knowing now about the regulations, would you still refuse?

 

[JBloggs]

My wife and I personally stayed at the Cornerstone 4 years ago. It is(was) a fabulous B&B and Mr. McCue and his partner were the epitome of professionalism They were very informed, amiable and down-to-earth. Albeit I sympathise with the Martins, I firmly believe that they were way out of line and should have delved into the matter more deeply before going off half-cocked and filing suit. I fully realize that a seeing-eye dog has the right to stay in a B&B, even if they don't accept pets, however, each circumstance is different and if I was the owner and had the same problems I would have done the same as Mr McCue. Going through all that S$#@ for a measily $700.00 and an apology was definitely not worth it. Both parties have a very bitter taste in their mouths and as our B&B is only 6 hours from Ottawa, I will most definitely keep the Martin name in my "Sorry we are all booked up" list.
Harry.

Both parties have a very bitter taste in their mouths and as our B&B is only 6 hours from Ottawa, I will most definitely keep the Martin name in my "Sorry we are all booked up" list.
Harry

Did you not read the article? You can't do that! That is what it is all about. If you do that and they see there is an opening you will be NEXT! You can't discriminate against a person with a support animal - or a person who is a PITA. Be very careful.

 

[Penelope]

I know of a lady who is not blind, but is deaf. Her dog is her "ears" for most things associated with her life. This dog is AMAZING. Not sure if the dog wears any special uniform or equipment or not.
The amount of training and time that goes into true serivce animals is astounding. Notice, I said "true service animals". I realize that there are unscrupulous people out there who don't give a flying fig about rules, regulations, or etiquette.
Which leads to the question: what if they lie and say that it's a service animal, but it's really just Fiffie the Lap Dog?
I'm just trying to get my eyes around the big picture.

 

[Breakfast Diva]

I know of a lady who is not blind, but is deaf. Her dog is her "ears" for most things associated with her life. This dog is AMAZING. Not sure if the dog wears any special uniform or equipment or not.
The amount of training and time that goes into true serivce animals is astounding. Notice, I said "true service animals". I realize that there are unscrupulous people out there who don't give a flying fig about rules, regulations, or etiquette.
Which leads to the question: what if they lie and say that it's a service animal, but it's really just Fiffie the Lap Dog?
I'm just trying to get my eyes around the big picture..

Which leads to the question: what if they lie and say that it's a service animal, but it's really just Fiffie the Lap Dog?
I'm just trying to get my eyes around the big picture.

You'll never know the difference, because it's illegal to ask for any proof!

 

[Don Draper]

Wait, I CAN'T discriminate against PITA's???? Rats...

 

[Penelope]

Wait, I CAN'T discriminate against PITA's???? Rats...

.

Wait, I CAN'T discriminate against PITA's???? Rats...

Well, that tears it. I don't want to be an innkeeper any longer.

 

[JBloggs]

Wait, I CAN'T discriminate against PITA's???? Rats...

.

Wait, I CAN'T discriminate against PITA's???? Rats...

You can try. They aren't call Pitas for nuthin'

 

[sunburst2]

You can refuse someone you know or think is a PITA if they aren't otherwise in a protected class. You could refuse anyone with blue eyes if you wanted to, or someone covered with tattoos or body piercings if you thought they looked like trouble. They aren't part of a protected class. Service dogs (animals) are a different story, as with refusing on the basis of race, religion, etc, etc, etc. I'm not sure I understand why a B&B can refuse children when familial status (having children) is protected from discrimination by landlords when it comes to renting housing. Does anyone have that answer?

 

[JBloggs]

You can refuse someone you know or think is a PITA if they aren't otherwise in a protected class. You could refuse anyone with blue eyes if you wanted to, or someone covered with tattoos or body piercings if you thought they looked like trouble. They aren't part of a protected class. Service dogs (animals) are a different story, as with refusing on the basis of race, religion, etc, etc, etc. I'm not sure I understand why a B&B can refuse children when familial status (having children) is protected from discrimination by landlords when it comes to renting housing. Does anyone have that answer?.

You can refuse someone you know or think is a PITA if they aren't otherwise in a protected class. You could refuse anyone with blue eyes if you wanted to, or someone covered with tattoos or body piercings if you thought they looked like trouble. They aren't part of a protected class. Service dogs (animals) are a different story, as with refusing on the basis of race, religion, etc, etc, etc. I'm not sure I understand why a B&B can refuse children when familial status (having children) is protected from discrimination by landlords when it comes to renting housing. Does anyone have that answer?

No you can't! You can refuse someone because they are ugly! Are you kidding me? Everyone is part of a protected class. Call your attorney and find out your rights...you are open to the public you can't just say "You might be trouble so no room for you tonight." You can call the cops should they tear up the place and cause a problem there - you can't tell them in advance YOU WILL BE TROUBLE or I DON'T LIKE THE WAY YOU LOOK.

 

[wendydk]

You can refuse someone you know or think is a PITA if they aren't otherwise in a protected class. You could refuse anyone with blue eyes if you wanted to, or someone covered with tattoos or body piercings if you thought they looked like trouble. They aren't part of a protected class. Service dogs (animals) are a different story, as with refusing on the basis of race, religion, etc, etc, etc. I'm not sure I understand why a B&B can refuse children when familial status (having children) is protected from discrimination by landlords when it comes to renting housing. Does anyone have that answer?.

You can refuse someone you know or think is a PITA if they aren't otherwise in a protected class. You could refuse anyone with blue eyes if you wanted to, or someone covered with tattoos or body piercings if you thought they looked like trouble. They aren't part of a protected class. Service dogs (animals) are a different story, as with refusing on the basis of race, religion, etc, etc, etc. I'm not sure I understand why a B&B can refuse children when familial status (having children) is protected from discrimination by landlords when it comes to renting housing. Does anyone have that answer?

No you can't! You can refuse someone because they are ugly! Are you kidding me? Everyone is part of a protected class. Call your attorney and find out your rights...you are open to the public you can't just say "You might be trouble so no room for you tonight." You can call the cops should they tear up the place and cause a problem there - you can't tell them in advance YOU WILL BE TROUBLE or I DON'T LIKE THE WAY YOU LOOK.
.

Depends on the size of your Inn. Ours is considered a business within a private home, thus I can refuse entry to anyone I like.

 

[JBloggs]

You can refuse someone you know or think is a PITA if they aren't otherwise in a protected class. You could refuse anyone with blue eyes if you wanted to, or someone covered with tattoos or body piercings if you thought they looked like trouble. They aren't part of a protected class. Service dogs (animals) are a different story, as with refusing on the basis of race, religion, etc, etc, etc. I'm not sure I understand why a B&B can refuse children when familial status (having children) is protected from discrimination by landlords when it comes to renting housing. Does anyone have that answer?.

You can refuse someone you know or think is a PITA if they aren't otherwise in a protected class. You could refuse anyone with blue eyes if you wanted to, or someone covered with tattoos or body piercings if you thought they looked like trouble. They aren't part of a protected class. Service dogs (animals) are a different story, as with refusing on the basis of race, religion, etc, etc, etc. I'm not sure I understand why a B&B can refuse children when familial status (having children) is protected from discrimination by landlords when it comes to renting housing. Does anyone have that answer?

No you can't! You can refuse someone because they are ugly! Are you kidding me? Everyone is part of a protected class. Call your attorney and find out your rights...you are open to the public you can't just say "You might be trouble so no room for you tonight." You can call the cops should they tear up the place and cause a problem there - you can't tell them in advance YOU WILL BE TROUBLE or I DON'T LIKE THE WAY YOU LOOK.
.

Depends on the size of your Inn. Ours is considered a business within a private home, thus I can refuse entry to anyone I like.
.

Depends on the size of your Inn. Ours is considered a business within a private home, thus I can refuse entry to anyone I like.

Who says?
I am asking as I had a "situation" year one and contacted attorneys who specialize in this area and was not told what you are saying above, at all. Here is my thing, we are a family living here as well, so I asked from the angle of a FAMILY, not just an owner. It didn't change a thing. You better have a legit reason for denying entry/service to anyone you like.
If someone has anything they can point us to, please do. I would hate for aspirings to read the forum and think they can pick and choose their guests based on eye color.

 

[wendydk]

You can refuse someone you know or think is a PITA if they aren't otherwise in a protected class. You could refuse anyone with blue eyes if you wanted to, or someone covered with tattoos or body piercings if you thought they looked like trouble. They aren't part of a protected class. Service dogs (animals) are a different story, as with refusing on the basis of race, religion, etc, etc, etc. I'm not sure I understand why a B&B can refuse children when familial status (having children) is protected from discrimination by landlords when it comes to renting housing. Does anyone have that answer?.

You can refuse someone you know or think is a PITA if they aren't otherwise in a protected class. You could refuse anyone with blue eyes if you wanted to, or someone covered with tattoos or body piercings if you thought they looked like trouble. They aren't part of a protected class. Service dogs (animals) are a different story, as with refusing on the basis of race, religion, etc, etc, etc. I'm not sure I understand why a B&B can refuse children when familial status (having children) is protected from discrimination by landlords when it comes to renting housing. Does anyone have that answer?

No you can't! You can refuse someone because they are ugly! Are you kidding me? Everyone is part of a protected class. Call your attorney and find out your rights...you are open to the public you can't just say "You might be trouble so no room for you tonight." You can call the cops should they tear up the place and cause a problem there - you can't tell them in advance YOU WILL BE TROUBLE or I DON'T LIKE THE WAY YOU LOOK.
.

Depends on the size of your Inn. Ours is considered a business within a private home, thus I can refuse entry to anyone I like.
.

Depends on the size of your Inn. Ours is considered a business within a private home, thus I can refuse entry to anyone I like.

Who says?
I am asking as I had a "situation" year one and contacted attorneys who specialize in this area and was not told what you are saying above, at all. Here is my thing, we are a family living here as well, so I asked from the angle of a FAMILY, not just an owner. It didn't change a thing. You better have a legit reason for denying entry/service to anyone you like.
If someone has anything they can point us to, please do. I would hate for aspirings to read the forum and think they can pick and choose their guests based on eye color.
.

§ 2000a. Prohibition against discrimination or segregation in places of public accommodation
Title 42 > Chapter 21 > Subchapter II > Section 2000a
Title 42 of the US Code as currently published by the US Government reflects the laws passed by Congress as of Jan. 8, 2008
(a) Equal access
All persons shall be entitled to the full and equal enjoyment of the goods, services, facilities, privileges, advantages, and accommodations of any place of public accommodation, as defined in this section, without discrimination or segregation on the ground of race, color, religion, or national origin.
(b) Establishments affecting interstate commerce or supported in their activities by State action as places of public accommodation; lodgings; facilities principally engaged in selling food for consumption on the premises; gasoline stations; places of exhibition or entertainment; other covered establishments
Each of the following establishments which serves the public is a place of public accommodation within the meaning of this subchapter if its operations affect commerce, or if discrimination or segregation by it is supported by State action:

• (1) any inn, hotel, motel, or other establishment which provides lodging to transient guests, other than an establishment located within a building which contains not more than five rooms for rent or hire and which is actually occupied by the proprietor of such establishment as his residence

Found at: http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/42/usc_sec_42_00002000---a000-.html