Fire Sprinklers Anyone?

[white pine]

Hello Again!
Still crunching numbers here. Latest is fire sprinklers, if we do rehab of over 50% of square footage per floor, we will have to install commercial fire sprinklers. The place is not on a city water supply so this means a new well, a special water tank and a fire pump. Oh and the electrical service needs to be upgraded to 400! The pump uninstalled is about 40k! Total cost for system over 150,000!! We are re-assessing plans, but I think sprinklers are a good idea, exploring maybe a residential system. I understand kitchen fire suppression systems are another costly item too. Just wondering what others are doing for fire controls?

 

[nkeeprs]

When I had my older Inn it was grandfathered so I did not need a sprinkler system, however the new Inn I bought a 1 1/2 ago already had the system installed so that was great. It can be very expensive to put a sprinkler system and the fired codes you need to follow. The best of luck

 

[JBloggs]

PVC is allowable per the fire marshal. If you didn't know this, it is acceptable as commercial use and 1/3 the cost.
It is all up to local regulations, so whatever is required locally is what each of us must do. Generally though, if you have rooms on a third floor you will be required to install a sprinkler system.

 

[EmptyNest]

It all depends on your state codes. You have to follow the rules in this case..no getting around them:-( This has been a problem for several inns who wanted to expand here in VA....they didn't because they couldn't afford to do it.

 

[Innkeep]

This may be the point at which you ask yourself if it is worth it. Unless the seller is willing to take into account that the value of his property is suddenly 150k less than either he or you anticipated. Sort of like if you sell a house that needs a new roof you usually take the expense of a new roof off the asking price, It's difficult to imagine how you will recoup those expenses otherwise.
I recently finished remaking my family home into a 4 room B&B. Commercial codes caused very significant increases in cost. In retrospect, I would have spent less to build a totally new structure, but in my case the motivation was very strong to save the house, and to change careers.

 

[white pine]

Quick responses! Thanks, you are all great! Point of clarification, it appears we can, with the building inspectors approval, scale down the reno so we don't have to install them. Cost of system quoted was using PVC I believe too. Thanks Joey on that it is true, costs less. Just wondering if any of you would opt for residential systems which I believe do not require as much water & upgrades. No rooms will be on the third floor, but that leaves us at about 10,000sq ft. What do you do in your kitchens?

 

[JBloggs]

Quick responses! Thanks, you are all great! Point of clarification, it appears we can, with the building inspectors approval, scale down the reno so we don't have to install them. Cost of system quoted was using PVC I believe too. Thanks Joey on that it is true, costs less. Just wondering if any of you would opt for residential systems which I believe do not require as much water & upgrades. No rooms will be on the third floor, but that leaves us at about 10,000sq ft. What do you do in your kitchens?.

Quick responses! Thanks, you are all great! Point of clarification, it appears we can, with the building inspectors approval, scale down the reno so we don't have to install them. Cost of system quoted was using PVC I believe too. Thanks Joey on that it is true, costs less. Just wondering if any of you would opt for residential systems which I believe do not require as much water & upgrades. No rooms will be on the third floor, but that leaves us at about 10,000sq ft. What do you do in your kitchens?

Who is giving you an option of res vs commercial? Get everything in writing, and then get it again. When we looked in NH we were told five different things while standing in the same town building, it was unbelievable, and it was very typical. I have never even seen residential sprinklering systems. Are you talking about heat detectors and such? Again, these are commercial requirements, most private homes only use smoke detectors. The zoning depicts much of what is required for you. I have never seen anyone given options to what they want to do. Get it all in writing. And then be warned even in writing is not necessarily in stone, they can change their minds or so whatever they wish.

 

[Morticia]

Our place came with a sprinkler system. As for the kitchen, ours is a 'home' kitchen, not a big commercial affair. We have fire extinguishers and the sprinkler system runs thru the kitchen as well.
If we wanted to redo the 3rd floor into guest space, that area would all have to be done and I'm not sure if we'd then have to do any of the newer coded stuff like enclosed stairways.

 

[EmptyNest]

Quick responses! Thanks, you are all great! Point of clarification, it appears we can, with the building inspectors approval, scale down the reno so we don't have to install them. Cost of system quoted was using PVC I believe too. Thanks Joey on that it is true, costs less. Just wondering if any of you would opt for residential systems which I believe do not require as much water & upgrades. No rooms will be on the third floor, but that leaves us at about 10,000sq ft. What do you do in your kitchens?.

Have you already purchased this property?? I don't think there is an option...to do residential...you will be a commercial business...you must follow those rules. As JB said..get everything in writing and maybe even notarized

 

[white pine]

Thanks for your concerns. WE DO NOTHING HASTY. The architect is the one making the calls. He says he has a code book and is spending much time with officials reading sections of it back and forth. Code is Code. This is a rural county and only state code applies. I will ask him to at least save the e-mails and what he feel about documentation.,However he has stated that as long as the rehab stays under a certain percentage we stay grandfathered. He knows the state fire Marshall, and has run the plans past him. As it is we will have to put in an enclosed steel fire stair. We also will have alarms and lighted egress escapes. This is what is .REQUIRED.
We have not even offered yet. We do not own it. We want to preserve it, and in my mind that means protection ala sprinklers.

 

[Samster]

Thanks for your concerns. WE DO NOTHING HASTY. The architect is the one making the calls. He says he has a code book and is spending much time with officials reading sections of it back and forth. Code is Code. This is a rural county and only state code applies. I will ask him to at least save the e-mails and what he feel about documentation.,However he has stated that as long as the rehab stays under a certain percentage we stay grandfathered. He knows the state fire Marshall, and has run the plans past him. As it is we will have to put in an enclosed steel fire stair. We also will have alarms and lighted egress escapes. This is what is .REQUIRED.
We have not even offered yet. We do not own it. We want to preserve it, and in my mind that means protection ala sprinklers..

Check with your local code on the fire suppression systems requirement for a kitchen. Under our B&B license here, we are not required to have it but all restaurants must have it (along with a gazillion sinks...which is also something for you to check into).
In Colorado, we looked at a place that had the system in the kitchen because they had gone the route of having a commercial kitchen in order to have events and do their own food.
Health department regulations have changed almost every year here for restaurants! Luckily, for the health department we fall under a tourist accommodation and there is separate criteria for homestays, B&Bs, and bed and breakfast inns.
County and local can supercede State if it they are more stringent, but they can't be more lax. Best of luck!

 

[gillumhouse]

My Association dealt with this issue several years ago. (We were told spinklers would pay for themselves in lower insurance costs - the insurance company told me they would say thank you, period.)
We had to get the Legislature to change the Fire Code to make us legal. And if you are not on city water - OMG the extra cost!! The way things were, we would have to have the enclosed staircases, fire doors etc the the big boy hotels had to have or if they recognized we were not a hotel then we must be a rooming house and were permitted 3, yes that is three, paid occupants.
Our Legislators in their infinite wisdom decided that a portable ladder in each room was not protecting the public so inns of 4 - 6 rooms must have either 2 interior staircases (main & maid's in the old mansions), OR sprinklers OR each room accessing the exterior (as in sleeping porches or balconies), OR must have a covered staircase to ground accessed by a door accessible to everyone on the second floor. Guestrooms on the third floor MUST have the outside staircase to ground (if owners or innkeeprs occupy the 3rd floor - no problem). 3 rooms or less that are owner or innkeeper occcupied are considered a residence.
Minnesota mandates a window of a certain size - no ladder required. When I e-mailed the Fire Marshall site asking about that, I was told, "We figure if it is jump or burn, people will jump. They may break a leg or twist an ankle but they will be alive."
An architect on the Fire Commission told me that sprinklers are to protect property, not lives. That the temps required to set off a sprinkler would have already roasted a person.

 

[white pine]

My Association dealt with this issue several years ago. (We were told spinklers would pay for themselves in lower insurance costs - the insurance company told me they would say thank you, period.)
We had to get the Legislature to change the Fire Code to make us legal. And if you are not on city water - OMG the extra cost!! The way things were, we would have to have the enclosed staircases, fire doors etc the the big boy hotels had to have or if they recognized we were not a hotel then we must be a rooming house and were permitted 3, yes that is three, paid occupants.
Our Legislators in their infinite wisdom decided that a portable ladder in each room was not protecting the public so inns of 4 - 6 rooms must have either 2 interior staircases (main & maid's in the old mansions), OR sprinklers OR each room accessing the exterior (as in sleeping porches or balconies), OR must have a covered staircase to ground accessed by a door accessible to everyone on the second floor. Guestrooms on the third floor MUST have the outside staircase to ground (if owners or innkeeprs occupy the 3rd floor - no problem). 3 rooms or less that are owner or innkeeper occcupied are considered a residence.
Minnesota mandates a window of a certain size - no ladder required. When I e-mailed the Fire Marshall site asking about that, I was told, "We figure if it is jump or burn, people will jump. They may break a leg or twist an ankle but they will be alive."
An architect on the Fire Commission told me that sprinklers are to protect property, not lives. That the temps required to set off a sprinkler would have already roasted a person..

Wish I were in your state! Maybe you can lobby mine! As there is no local code here we are dealing with the state code. The building is T shaped, with a door on each end. Initially I thought by putting the front porch back on,and porch roofs over each door with a ladder of some sort would allow egress -the size of the window openings are plenty large to qualify, but they don't count egress onto a porch roof/deck as an exit--not even with a stair at ends.
The inn currently has two stairwells, but the front stair is not enclosed, and the rear stair is too narrow--it must be 36" and exit directly outdoors, not the kitchen. Ladders of any sort are a no go--must be metal stairs. Architect feels he can re-work the back stair to comply which is something the Marshall feels strongly about.
It does seem the code is a little extreme for smaller properties. The building is not a big boy hotel. I don't see myself lobbying to change the laws here but I sure would support it someone did! I would never want to jeopardize life or property, but please!
I feel that sprinklers are about property too-- but I would like to save it as well. Boy this stuff makes the head spin! Thanks so much for all your input!

 

[white pine]

Thanks for your concerns. WE DO NOTHING HASTY. The architect is the one making the calls. He says he has a code book and is spending much time with officials reading sections of it back and forth. Code is Code. This is a rural county and only state code applies. I will ask him to at least save the e-mails and what he feel about documentation.,However he has stated that as long as the rehab stays under a certain percentage we stay grandfathered. He knows the state fire Marshall, and has run the plans past him. As it is we will have to put in an enclosed steel fire stair. We also will have alarms and lighted egress escapes. This is what is .REQUIRED.
We have not even offered yet. We do not own it. We want to preserve it, and in my mind that means protection ala sprinklers..

Check with your local code on the fire suppression systems requirement for a kitchen. Under our B&B license here, we are not required to have it but all restaurants must have it (along with a gazillion sinks...which is also something for you to check into).
In Colorado, we looked at a place that had the system in the kitchen because they had gone the route of having a commercial kitchen in order to have events and do their own food.
Health department regulations have changed almost every year here for restaurants! Luckily, for the health department we fall under a tourist accommodation and there is separate criteria for homestays, B&Bs, and bed and breakfast inns.
County and local can supercede State if it they are more stringent, but they can't be more lax. Best of luck!
.

Thanks for the feedback. No local code here, but I understand that the commercial kitchen is another whole undertaking. As that is not a deal killer for us right now; we will put that on the "back burner".

I have been looking at costs for hood suppression systems, and although expensive do seem like a good idea for a commercial kitchen.
Will definitely ask about codes for B&Bs or small Inns for food service--
Thanks

 

[gillumhouse]

My Association dealt with this issue several years ago. (We were told spinklers would pay for themselves in lower insurance costs - the insurance company told me they would say thank you, period.)
We had to get the Legislature to change the Fire Code to make us legal. And if you are not on city water - OMG the extra cost!! The way things were, we would have to have the enclosed staircases, fire doors etc the the big boy hotels had to have or if they recognized we were not a hotel then we must be a rooming house and were permitted 3, yes that is three, paid occupants.
Our Legislators in their infinite wisdom decided that a portable ladder in each room was not protecting the public so inns of 4 - 6 rooms must have either 2 interior staircases (main & maid's in the old mansions), OR sprinklers OR each room accessing the exterior (as in sleeping porches or balconies), OR must have a covered staircase to ground accessed by a door accessible to everyone on the second floor. Guestrooms on the third floor MUST have the outside staircase to ground (if owners or innkeeprs occupy the 3rd floor - no problem). 3 rooms or less that are owner or innkeeper occcupied are considered a residence.
Minnesota mandates a window of a certain size - no ladder required. When I e-mailed the Fire Marshall site asking about that, I was told, "We figure if it is jump or burn, people will jump. They may break a leg or twist an ankle but they will be alive."
An architect on the Fire Commission told me that sprinklers are to protect property, not lives. That the temps required to set off a sprinkler would have already roasted a person..

Wish I were in your state! Maybe you can lobby mine! As there is no local code here we are dealing with the state code. The building is T shaped, with a door on each end. Initially I thought by putting the front porch back on,and porch roofs over each door with a ladder of some sort would allow egress -the size of the window openings are plenty large to qualify, but they don't count egress onto a porch roof/deck as an exit--not even with a stair at ends.
The inn currently has two stairwells, but the front stair is not enclosed, and the rear stair is too narrow--it must be 36" and exit directly outdoors, not the kitchen. Ladders of any sort are a no go--must be metal stairs. Architect feels he can re-work the back stair to comply which is something the Marshall feels strongly about.
It does seem the code is a little extreme for smaller properties. The building is not a big boy hotel. I don't see myself lobbying to change the laws here but I sure would support it someone did! I would never want to jeopardize life or property, but please!
I feel that sprinklers are about property too-- but I would like to save it as well. Boy this stuff makes the head spin! Thanks so much for all your input!
.

It took 2 years, countless trips to the Capitol for hearings, over $3000 for lobyist..... And the last week of the Session, I had to go to the Capitol 3 times in one week. Advice, never piss off an influential Legislator - even if it was not intentionally done!
I maintain you cannot buy a Legislator but you MUST buy your Legislation. By this I mean you cannot pay a Legisltor to get a Bill passed but if you do not hire a lobbyist you will never get your bill passed - therefore you must buy your legislation.

 

[alvinashah2018]

A fire sprinkler or sprinkler head is the component of a Fire Sprinkler Systems that discharges water when the effects of a fire have been detected, such as when a predetermined temperature has been exceeded. Fire sprinklers are extensively used worldwide, with over 40 million sprinkler heads fitted each year. In buildings protected by properly designed and maintained fire sprinklers, over 99% of fires were controlled by fire sprinklers alone.