JBJ -
Not sure what to say about this one. We've heard nothing but negative complaints about Trip Advisor, so we have tried to put together a program that works for innkeepers. We get a lot more customer data from a guest, we alert innkeepers when a review is posted, we let you immediately reply to each post, and we often require proof of stay to post a review. Innkeepers often told us that guest would leave a property and forget to go back online and post a review, so we came up with this card program where we pay for all of the costs so there is a better chance to get the reviews in the first place. Are the cards perfect? No - they are not - it would be nice to make them even bigger, but then USPS bulk rate mailing changes dramatically making an already expensive endeavor completely unaffordable. They certainly are miles and miles better than nothing at all.
So to hear that you think this is "The ultimate of Lame" is pretty disappointing. We've stuck our neck and our pocketbooks way out on this to try and do something good here for innkeepers and the industry. Luckily thousands of innkeepers appreciate this and have seen great results, and we get phone calls and emails all of the time thanking us for providing some type of alternative to Trip Advisor..
John,
Let me start by saying that I am not anti-B&B.com. I have a four-room B&B, which to me seems to be an average size, but I suspect is considered “small” to you. I do want to explore what you've said and discuss the issue rationally...
In Post #2810 you said, "
We send a full color directory with every single order now, in a heavy foil-lined envelope, along with a greeting letter and personalized message custom printed for every order. "
This is the first I've heard of that. So far I've only heard of GC's being bought at Costco and being printed out online. How do you keep the directory up to date? If I join B&B.com tomorrow and elect to take GC's, how long until I'm listed in the directory?
Post #2810: "The constant feedback we get from people who won't stay at a B&B is that their impression of B&B's is that they are too small/kitchy/unprofessional/etc. We know this is not true - B&B's are beautiful, professionally run establishments"
What is meant by too small? Is four rooms too small? If so, then maybe it's good that I'm not in the program. What is meant by professional? If you mean large, impersonal, and run by staff, then no thanks! There's an active and interesting thread about a girl who got all B&B GC's for Christmas and is at this moment traveling through New Engand staying at B&B's. I have to say that her experiences have been a sad reflection on the larger "professional" establishments. The thread can be found at: [COLOR= purple]https://www.innspiring.com/node/278[/COLOR], which includes a link to her very interesting blog.
Post #2810 "So our costs on actual production and transactions are pretty darn high, and our quality is as well."
So is the cost of new sheets, it's just a part of my overhead.
Post #2810: "you are talking tens of thousands on equipment and more in parts, upkeep, supplier, etc."
Gosh, can't any of that be subcontracted if it's so outrageously expensive?
Post #2810: "Not to mention all of the legal costs to track and maintain compliance with all fifty states regulations."
Now this I can believe!
Post #2810: "At the end of the day, an innkeeper gets someone who redeems a card."
Or maybe just an online certificate.
Post #2810: "so already an average of 3% comes right off the top and the innkeeper only pays a net 12%"
I do not pay 3% in CC fees, it's less than that (I checked).
Post #2810: "Then we almost always hear that customers spend more than the face value."
I don't know where you hear that since I've heard exactly the opposite.
Post #2810: "then the real commission on the card is 6-7% or so."
If they spend more than the value, which is not a given. The real cost is about 13%. Now briarrose had a good point... many of us give 10% discounts for all kinds of reasons, and from that perspective, 10% is not a big deal, so why should 13% irk so much? The answer, of course, is that we've already given our 10% discount for senior/ clergy/ military/ early/ late/ online/ off season/ pity's sake, and now there's this 13% on top of it because, after all, we can't limit the reservations in this program. Then it's 23%. Ouch!
Post #2810: “
Seems like a pretty reasonable amount to pay for this type of product.”
No, seems like a reasonable amount (to you at least) to charge for this product. From the innkeeper’s perspective, it seems too much. We don’t begrudge you your perspective, don’t begrudge us ours.
Post #2810: “We have to stay in business too... and there are real expenses to keep this program going.”
No one doubts you have to stay in business. It just feels like we’re bearing the brunt of the cost. We don’t expect you to do it out of altruism, but it does feel like you need to either control costs more or make less profit on the program. Not saying you can, just saying it feels that way on our end.
Post #2884: “
I guess what I hear the most is that innkeepers are not interested in the program - almost entirely because of the commisssion.”
Well, since you hear it most, maybe you should take what we’re saying into consideration.
Post #2884: “If there was no commission - then every innkeeper would join...”
If every innkeeper joined then you would really have something to tout! But as every innkeeper is not on B&B.com, not every one would join even if there weren’t commissions.
Post #2884: “comes back to not thinking that BedandBreakfast.com is doing enough/has enough costs to justify a 15% commission”
Well, or that they’re thinking they’ve already paid their yearly dues (which is a whole separate topic!), why should it take 15% to run such a program, and why should it come out of their pocket when B&B.com also benefits so much from the program? I think you’d find 10% to be a lot more acceptable… it’s an amount that innkeepers (and retailers and restaurants) already discount, and already have built into their pricing.
Post #2884: “
In the case of the former, hopefully folks can understand that it is not a very simple thing to do.”
Until you described the expense and trouble you’ve gone through to create the program none of us had any idea it cost so much. Why would we? It’s what you do. Just as our guests have no idea of the cost and trouble we go through to have clean rooms and fabulous breakfasts. Why would they? It’s what we do. [But we don’t want them to feel bad about it… we want to maintain the illusion that all is relaxed and easy here at the B&B.]
Post #2887: “
We only launched the online certificates a few years ago, and for a while they were heavily used.”
Are you saying that use has declined?
Post #2887: “Now we offer free shipping on the cards, along with free fedex many times of the year.”
So you’re encouraging them to incur more expense on your behalf?
Post #2887: “even when they print online - we still mail them the directory, a letter, the nice envelope, etc.”
Why?
Post #2887: “so we are eating all of those costs now as well.”
Oh, somehow I don’t think you’re eating them… they’re part of that 15%, and we’re eating them. What you’re eating is less profit from the program.
Post #2890: “
So if you are not seeing a return on investment, and put no value in anything else we do besides Google placements, then I can understand why you feel you should not list on the site. But if you are seeing more dollars back on reservations than on your marketing spend with us, then I'm not sure that would be a good business decision.”
This is interesting to me because I have not listed with B&B.com. I am being easily found by people searching for a B&B in my area, so I’m not sure I can justify the cost of the listing. I’d have to get several reservations that wouldn’t have come otherwise, which would be difficult to determine. And I’m still bugged by the lowest level not having links. But just now I noticed your 90 day trial period and three free months… ah, but only at your first functional level, Silver.
Post #2890: “
Ultimately the negativity towards us doesn't get anyone anywhere - we are not bad people here and we are not out to get anyone”
It’s the same negativity that Micro$oft gets. Don’t take it personally.
Post #2895: “
We've heard nothing but negative complaints about Trip Advisor, so we have tried to put together a program that works for innkeepers.”
The idea of replacing TA sounds fabulous to me. But since you only review inns that are members, it’s not a true replacment, and doesn’t benefit us itty bitty non-member inns.
Post #2895: “Are the cards perfect? No - they are not - it would be nice to make them even bigger, but then USPS bulk rate mailing changes dramatically making an already expensive endeavor completely unaffordable.”
Um, could you make the font smaller? Margins smaller? Redesign the card and ask for different information so that there’s more room for comments? It seems to me that if the whole purpose of the card is to garner comments then there ought to be room on the card for comments, even long ones. There are ways to do that without making the cards bigger.
=)
Kk.
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Now that is a long post! Guess we know there is no limit - don't tell Eric G though - he'll use all the space he can get! Good questions though - I've been typing this for a long time now. For some reason I'm having trouble with the length/paragraph returns in the system, so apologize if this is a little choppy. I'm trying to answer them all:
On the directory - yes - we started that last fall. Been going out with everthing except the retail hanger cards (CVS, Office Depot, Safeway, etc. only allow hangers). We re-order/re-print the directory every quarter.
You Said: What is meant by too small? Is four rooms too small?
My Response: Every survey we have seen shows something like only 3-4% of travelers consider staying at a B&B. They think "homestay" when they think of a B&B... extra bedroom with shared bath in a small house. That just isn't the case - the overwhelmingy majority of properties are 3-4 rooms or larger with private baths. Half of our properties are 7 rooms or under, half are larger, so at 4 rooms you pretty much fit right in.
You Said: So is the cost of new sheets, it's just a part of my overhead. ...you are talking tens of thousands on equipment and more in parts, upkeep, supplier, etc. Gosh, can't any of that be subcontracted if it's so outrageously expensive?
My Response: Exactly - so we need to make something to cover our overhead as well. We have tried to outsource as well. There is really only one company that does it, and they force you into selling every guest a greeting card, no flexibility on shipping prices, and you have no real control. They handle some pretty big clients - but their entire service went down last December - a couple weeks before the holidays - and didn't come up until mid-late Jan!!!!! Believe me - I'd love to outsource it - it is a big operation and must be done in a very secure environment.
You Said: Post #2810: "so already an average of 3% comes right off the top and the innkeeper only pays a net 12%".... I do not pay 3% in CC fees, it's less than that (I checked).
My Response: Check the average price of online transactions - not swiped... any transaction done over the web is "non-qualified.." So you are looking at a rate of roughly 2.5% plus trans fees for Visa/MC, and a lot more for Amex. We process credit cards for hundreds of inns through RezOvation using PAI (Tom Weiskotten) and Intuit - and 3% including swiped is on the very low end for average landed cost.
You Said: Post #2810: "Then we almost always hear that customers spend more than the face value.".... I don't know where you hear that since I've heard exactly the opposite.
There is a post right in this thread from Briar Rose that says "usually only a portion of the stay is paid with a GC..." I have numerous other quotes from properties saying exactly the same thing. Until you try it for yourself though, it is hard to find out.
You Said: No, seems like a reasonable amount (to you at least) to charge for this product. From the innkeeper’s perspective, it seems too much. We don’t begrudge you your perspective, don’t begrudge us ours. No one doubts you have to stay in business. It just feels like we’re bearing the brunt of the cost. We don’t expect you to do it out of altruism, but it does feel like you need to either control costs more or make less profit on the program. Not saying you can, just saying it feels that way on our end.My Response: I certainly can't lose money on this program... but how much lower can I go on this? I'd challenge you to sit in my shoes for a few months and come up with a better/cheaper/more effective solution. I'm certainly not the smartest guy on the planet, but we've got a pretty good team looking at the best ways to do this.
You Said: Post #2884: “I guess what I hear the most is that innkeepers are not interested in the program - almost entirely because of the commisssion.” ... Well, since you hear it most, maybe you should take what we’re saying into consideration.
My Response: We do take it into consideration, but we have to make some money on this, or we will not be able to promote it and pay salaries and rent for very long. I can't tell you how many times I have heard innkeepers complain about guests wanting a discount, or not wanting to pay peak season rates, or higher weekend rates, etc. to an inn. Why doesn't every inn just drop their weekend rates? Why do inns charge peak season rates when it is the same room and the costs are the same as the off-season? Why not just lower prices in general? Why do some inns offer gourmet coffee and others do not? Why do some have 300ct sheets and others do not? All good questions - and the answers are that every inn manages their operation to the best of their ability and sets costs accordingly so that they can stay in business. So do we - and netting 12% is pretty thin.
You Said: Post #2884: “If there was no commission - then every innkeeper would join...”... If every innkeeper joined then you would really have something to tout! But as every innkeeper is not on B&B.com, not every one would join even if there weren’t commissions.
My Response: And we could tout it all the way into bankruptcy!
Post #2884: “comes back to not thinking that BedandBreakfast.com is doing enough/has enough costs to justify a 15% commission”
You Said: Well, or that they’re thinking they’ve already paid their yearly dues (which is a whole separate topic!), why should it take 15% to run such a program, and why should it come out of their pocket when B&B.com also benefits so much from the program? I think you’d find 10% to be a lot more acceptable… it’s an amount that innkeepers (and retailers and restaurants) already discount, and already have built into their pricing.
My Response: Again - this seems to me just like a guest complaining that your inn is over-priced. You can't run your inn for a lot less per room, and at this low of a net, with all the production costs, overhead and shipping, how could we even keep this product afloat?
Your Post: Post #2884: “In the case of the former, hopefully folks can understand that it is not a very simple thing to do.” ...Until you described the expense and trouble you’ve gone through to create the program none of us had any idea it cost so much. Why would we? It’s what you do. Just as our guests have no idea of the cost and trouble we go through to have clean rooms and fabulous breakfasts. Why would they? It’s what we do. [But we don’t want them to feel bad about it… we want to maintain the illusion that all is relaxed and easy here at the B&B.]
My Reponse: This gets back to the whole "benefit of the doubt" thing I posted on months ago. You obviously didn't know how complex it is - but I'd think that the question would be a "why do you charge 15%... not "15% is a ripoff..."
Your Said: Post #2887: “We only launched the online certificates a few years ago, and for a while they were heavily used.” Are you saying that use has declined?
My Reponse: Well, that is a tough question. With the economy, things are a little flat - but purchasers have shifted greatly to the plastic cards instead of online ever since we waived the service and shipping fees. It only makes sense. What you see is a LOT of online orders on December 24th and the morning of the 25th!!! (Including mine one year)
You Said: Post #2887: “Now we offer free shipping on the cards, along with free fedex many times of the year.” So you’re encouraging them to incur more expense on your behalf?
My Response: No - but what we saw was that a lot of companies started offering free shipping and so on. So if Giftcertificates.com, or Travelocity starts doing free shipping on
gift cards - then we need to do it to stay competitive.
You Said: Post #2887: “even when they print online - we still mail them the directory, a letter, the nice envelope, etc.”
My Response: Because we want the people that buy online as well to have a nice product.
You Said: Oh, somehow I don’t think you’re eating them… they’re part of that 15%, and we’re eating them. What you’re eating is less profit from the program.
My Response: Well, we haven't changed our commission in four years, and we've added all of these extra costs and distributors over the past 12-18 months... so you are paying the same, and we are taking the extra costs out of our own pockets - so no, you are not eating them at all.
You Said: It’s the same negativity that Micro$oft gets. Don’t take it personally.
My Response: We employed less than 20 people for all of BedandBreakfast.com and RezOvation when we moved to Austin, TX, and today we are still below 40... so we do feel the negativity a little more than Microsoft. We are a very small business here. You might not know it based on the quality of products we are delivering - but that is a good thing as far as we are concerned!
You Said: Um, could you make the font smaller? Margins smaller? Redesign the card and ask for different information so that there’s more room for comments? It seems to me that if the whole purpose of the card is to garner comments then there ought to be room on the card for comments, even long ones. There are ways to do that without making the cards bigger.
My Response: Have you seen the cards? The font is about as small as is legible - we really have squeezed the max out of these things. We could drop the guest qualification areas (age, sex, how many times have you stayed in a B&B, etc. - but that is the type of info we want to get. The truth is that while most innkeepers like to see lots of free-form text comments, consumers really like the ratings... so we are meeting somewhere in between).
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